Are PEQ's a necessity or am I doing it wrong?

[marshall2553]

I usually play my Axe through a guitar cab and I love the tone I get. Most of my patches are just an amp block with reverb/delay and a drive pedal and require very little tweaking (no EQ other than the amp). I recently decided to take a stab at recording figuring it should be fairly easy given all of the great sounding clips I've heard posted here.

My problem is that I keep getting this nasty, unpleasant breakup in the high frequencies. It is most evident on patches with just a little dirt. Not so much with squeaky clean patches and less noticeable on higher gain stuff. It almost sounds like digital clipping but I've checked and I can't find any sign of clipping (I will double check this tonight though in case I've missed something). I've tried the stock cab models and Redwirez with every combination of mic type and placement. Some help more than others but it still doesn't eliminate it. And if I make a patch with just a connection from input to ouput the naked guitar tone does not exhibit the problem.

So now I'm resorting to a PEQ using some of the suggestions I've seen here but it always seem to wipe out some of the good high end content in the process. Shouldn't I be able to get reasonably good tones without a PEQ? I'm admittedly a recording noob but I never had this issue with my POD XT. I'm plugging into the front input of the Axe and I've been starting with a very simple patch of just an amp and cab block. The Fender and Vox models with a little dirt are the nastiest sounding (master almost dimed and drive around 3-4 with no drastic EQ settings). I started out using S/PDIF but switched to XLR just to eliminate that as an issue. My setup is an EMU 0404 going into a Mac Pro with KRK 5" monitors and I'm recording in Ableton Live Intro and Garageband.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Or could someone post a patch with a gritty Fender or Vox amp that works for them? I'm really getting frustrated here. Thanks in advance.

 

[alcaldwell]

Rather than use a PEQ, you can go into the advanced tab of the amp settings and lower the High Cut. As you noticed, you don't require as much on clean or semi dirty sounds. For really high-gain stuff, I usually lower it down to about 5,000 kHz. Obviously, you can always lower the Presence and/or Treble levels to suit your tastes.

You can also use a variation of this trick if you have a really overly bassy sound. For instance, with most patches I use a low-cut of about 120-140 Hz so I'm not stepping on the bassist's toes. However, I have an Top Boost patch that I overdrive for mid-gain stuff, and if I switch to my neck pickup the bass farts out very easily. To solve this problem, I use a low-cut of 500 Hz. Obviously, you can always lower the Depth and/or Bass levels to suit your tastes.

IMHO, there is no "absolute one right way" to go about solving your problem. I personally like using the advanced tab because that way I don't have to tie up resources in PEQ blocks.

Other suggestions:
In the same way that a lot of guys "over-drive" their amps, you can also "under-drive" it too by putting a filter block, PEQ block or over-drive block (with either the tone or treble rolled off). Remember, you can always put another EQ block AFTER the cabinet to add back some high-end.

Hope this helps!

-AL

 

[marshall2553]

Rather than use a PEQ, you can go into the advanced tab of the amp settings and lower the High Cut

Thanks, I'll give that a try. I rarely venture to the advanced tabs, mostly out of laziness. I tend to approach patches in the same manner I would approach a real amp so I generally stick to the first two tabs.

Part of my confusion is in the fact that the patch sounds great through a real speaker. I expect the IR's to sound similar (especially since I can compare a V30 IR to the real deal). I'm not talking about the whole "amp in the room" thing, just that I do not hear these nasty frequencies coming out of my real cab.

 

[joegold]

I usually play my Axe through a guitar cab and I love the tone I get. Most of my patches are just an amp block with reverb/delay and a drive pedal and require very little tweaking (no EQ other than the amp). I recently decided to take a stab at recording figuring it should be fairly easy given all of the great sounding clips I've heard posted here.

My problem is that I keep getting this nasty, unpleasant breakup in the high frequencies. It is most evident on patches with just a little dirt. Not so much with squeaky clean patches and less noticeable on higher gain stuff. It almost sounds like digital clipping but I've checked and I can't find any sign of clipping (I will double check this tonight though in case I've missed something). I've tried the stock cab models and Redwirez with every combination of mic type and placement. Some help more than others but it still doesn't eliminate it. And if I make a patch with just a connection from input to ouput the naked guitar tone does not exhibit the problem.

So now I'm resorting to a PEQ using some of the suggestions I've seen here but it always seem to wipe out some of the good high end content in the process. Shouldn't I be able to get reasonably good tones without a PEQ? I'm admittedly a recording noob but I never had this issue with my POD XT. I'm plugging into the front input of the Axe and I've been starting with a very simple patch of just an amp and cab block. The Fender and Vox models with a little dirt are the nastiest sounding (master almost dimed and drive around 3-4 with no drastic EQ settings). I started out using S/PDIF but switched to XLR just to eliminate that as an issue. My setup is an EMU 0404 going into a Mac Pro with KRK 5" monitors and I'm recording in Ableton Live Intro and Garageband.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Or could someone post a patch with a gritty Fender or Vox amp that works for them? I'm really getting frustrated here. Thanks in advance.

What speakers are in your guitar cab?
If you can obtain a decent IR of your actual cab then you might be able to get in the ballpark a little easier.

Remember that the cab IRs are usually of a close-mic'd cab. You'd need to use some EQ on a a close mic'd cab anyway.

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

I usually get rid of all the fizz with just the presence knob. Then I'll add treble to compensate... try it out.

 

[MisterE]

I noticed the exact same thing.
Since the OP's presets sound good through a guitar cab but not direct, the culprit must be the speaker simulations.
What's strange is that I only noticed this after the latest upgrades. (after firmware 9)
I'v been able to reduce the effect somewhat by using the same tricks, lowering high cut, less presence, PEQ with the Radley trick....
I didn't need all that before.
It's even more noticeable with IEM's.

 

[steadystate]

I don't understand people's reluctance to use the PEQs. I consider them an essential tool, not something to 'resort to'. When I used to mic a speaker, I would need substantial equalization after the mic to obtain the best sound (for my tastes).

In my opinion, those who believe they shouldn't have to use any eq whatsoever are doing themselves a disservice if they don't at least try it. The Axe has powerful eq for a reason. A good far field IR may not need much (though it may still benefit), but a close-miced IR benefitting greatly from eq should come as no surprise. It is not the same as a guitar cab in the room.

 

[marshall2553]

I don't understand people's reluctance to use the PEQs. I consider them an essential tool, not something to 'resort to'. When I used to mic a speaker, I would need substantial equalization after the mic to obtain the best sound (for my tastes).

In my opinion, those who believe they shouldn't have to use any eq whatsoever are doing themselves a disservice if they don't at least try it. The Axe has powerful eq for a reason. A good far field IR may not need much (though it may still benefit), but a close-miced IR benefitting greatly from eq should come as no surprise. It is not the same as a guitar cab in the room.

Like I said, I'm a noob when it comes to recording and wanted to make sure I'm not missing something. I've never mic'ed a cab, I didn't know if it was common to have to use EQ like this. I thought I'd seen several patches with no PEQ that people have posted here, accompanied by great sounding clips.

 

[steadystate]

Given enough experimentation with the various IRs and amp parameters, you may not need it. But you may very well still want it. If so, there is no reason not to use it.

 

[randocaster]

If you have Redwirez you may want to try moving further out on the cone, or some of the off axis IR's.

Also, a SM57 will have a lot more fizz than say an R121. (since you said you have no experience micing cabs).

 

[hoth]

Problems with FRFR and Cab Sims

I usually play my Axe through a guitar cab and I love the tone I get. Most of my patches are just an amp block with reverb/delay and a drive pedal and require very little tweaking (no EQ other than the amp). I recently decided to take a stab at recording figuring it should be fairly easy given all of the great sounding clips I've heard posted here.

My problem is that I keep getting this nasty, unpleasant breakup in the high frequencies. It is most evident on patches with just a little dirt.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Or could someone post a patch with a gritty Fender or Vox amp that works for them? I'm really getting frustrated here. Thanks in advance.

I have seen this too - patches through a real cab sounded great but through headphones I was getting more of the unpleasent sizzle/breakup and more low end farting out. I think it's because the cab naturally rolls off the highs and lows so when going through headphones it's more of a FRFR experience.

I usually turn off poweramp emulation globally when going through a cab since I'm already running through a poweramp. But I found turning the poweramp emulation on again when going through headphones helped with the problems your talking about. Maybe give that a try.

 

[marshall2553]

I think it's because the cab naturally rolls off the highs and lows so when going through headphones it's more of a FRFR experience.

And herein lies part of my confusion. If a real cab rolls them off then why don't the IR's? Again, I want to make clear I'm not talking about the much discussed "amp in the room" feel, just this annoying high freq. crackly breakup.

I usually turn off poweramp emulation globally when going through a cab since I'm already running through a poweramp. But I found turning the poweramp emulation on again when going through headphones helped with the problems your talking about. Maybe give that a try.

I always have the poweramp sim on.

I messed around with it some more on my lunch break and still can't get where I want to be using presence and hi-cut. I've mostly been using the R121 in the free Redwirez when not using the built in cabs. I'm starting to wonder if something is wrong with my Axe or my audio interface.

 

[joegold]

I noticed the exact same thing.
Since the OP's presets sound good through a guitar cab but not direct, the culprit must be the speaker simulations.
What's strange is that I only noticed this after the latest upgrades. (after firmware 9)
I'v been able to reduce the effect somewhat by using the same tricks, lowering high cut, less presence, PEQ with the Radley trick....
I didn't need all that before.
It's even more noticeable with IEM's.

From the firmware release notes:
9.01
NOTE: This firmware version may change the sound of your presets. You should audition your presets carefully after upgrading to verify that they sound as intended.
Reworked power amp simulation more accurately models speaker coil inductance and interaction with transformer / power tubes. The net effect is that all amp models will be “chimier” in general.
Amp block now defaults Thump and Warmth to zero when selecting an amp model.

Many users at the time did not like the extra "chime" although most did like it.

In 9.02 Cliff gave us the option of reverting the tone back to pre-9.01.
9.03
The TRANSFORMER MATCH parameter in the amp block has been split into two new
parameters: LF RESONANCE and HF RESONANCE. These parameters control the interaction of the virtual power amp with the virtual speaker in the low-frequency and high-frequency bands, respectively. The HF RESONANCE control is especially effective at brightening or darkening the amp model. The default value is 5.00 which is a relative value of 1.0 for each amp model’s actual high-frequency resonance. Reducing this value to 2.5, for example, will lower the high-frequency resonance and give most of the high-gain amps the same high-frequency resonance as version 9.00 firmware.


So, if there's too much top end for you try turning down the HF Resonance parameter.
You also might want to put the Warmth and Thump parameters back to their pre-901 values @2.99 each.

To the guy who's trying to monitor the Axe with headphones, don't.
It can't sound good that way. Cliff explained why a couple of months ago.
You'll find that headphones sound a lot better though if you also have sound coming out of speakers in the same room as you and your headphones, but that kinda takes the sense out of using headphones anyway.

 

[Llewzaher]

You say you play through guitar cab ..but when recording did you turn the cabs back on ? I know you were messing with the cabs but did you actually turn the global setting back on ?Most people playing with guitar cabs turn the cab sim off , but when recording direct sometimes forget etc..

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I've never mic'ed a cab, I didn't know if it was common to have to use EQ like this.

It's almost universal. If you use the close-mic'ed factory cabs sims (only three of them are farfield), you should expect to have to do the same thing you would when close-mic'ing a physical cab.

I thought I'd seen several patches with no PEQ that people have posted here, accompanied by great sounding clips.

PEQ is definitely not a necessity to smooth out distortion from the amp block. I don't use PEQ for that purpose in any of my presets.

Two suggestions: try farfield IRs (the factory ones are 1x12 Open, 2x12 GH, and 2x12 Gold), and work with the balance between power amp and preamp distortion. I find that reducing MV and increasing Drive can produce a smoother overdrive in some of the amp sims.

Other parameters that have an effect on the harshness of distortion are Hi Cut, Damp, and HF Resonance.

 

[marshall2553]

PEQ is definitely not a necessity to smooth out distortion from the amp block. I don't use PEQ for that purpose in any of my presets.

Two suggestions: try farfield IRs (the factory ones are 1x12 Open, 2x12 GH, and 2x12 Gold), and work with the balance between power amp and preamp distortion. I find that reducing MV and increasing Drive can produce a smoother overdrive in some of the amp sims.

Other parameters that have an effect on the harshness of distortion are Hi Cut, Damp, and HF Resonance.

Thanks Jay. Those are actually some of the stock cabs that I like the most, I didn't realize they were far fields. I usually gravitate toward the vintage amps and keep the master high. I'll try lowering it and raising the preamp gain and see if that helps. Looking back, these are the same frustrations I had when I tried FRFR using a QSC K12. Maybe I should give FRFR another try once I get my direct tones sorted out.

 

[Scott Peterson]

PEQ's are tools. Their use depends, as all these tools use does, on the situation, the mix, etc..

Using them is not a 'bad' or a 'good' thing. You should understand how to use them and use your own judgment on how to apply them or not.

A very good way to take the 'edge' off of high gain distortion amp blocks - without neutering your highs and 'bite' - is to simply change the setting of the HF Resonance from 5.00 to 2.50. Try that, and you might be a happy guy.

 

[yek]

"Inspired" by this thread I wrote this:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=21570
Purpose: collect all tips on this topic.

 

[marshall2553]

"Inspired" by this thread I wrote this:
http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/viewt ... 11&t=21570
Purpose: collect all tips on this topic.

Thanks yek, I just gave that a read. I'm still pulling my hair out with this problem. The two things that are bothering me are:

-Why is all of this necessary in the first place? I don't hear the nasty high frequencies that I hear in almost every IR when I play through a real cab. It doesn't matter if I'm standing 10 feet away from the cab or with my ear on the grillcloth, I don't hear them. I understand the difference between live and recorded tone, this just seems like more than that.

-I've heard some unbelievable clips posted on this forum and I'm utterly failing at capturing similar tones. A lot of them talk about how easy it was to dial in. Most of the patches posted are pretty similar to mine. This is leading me think I'm just doing something wrong or something in my setup is broken.

Anyway, thanks for the help everybody.

 

[Avenyr]

"Inspired" by this thread I wrote this:
http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/viewt ... 11&t=21570
Purpose: collect all tips on this topic.

Thanks yek, I just gave that a read. I'm still pulling my hair out with this problem. The two things that are bothering me are:

-Why is all of this necessary in the first place? I don't hear the nasty high frequencies that I hear in almost every IR when I play through a real cab. It doesn't matter if I'm standing 10 feet away from the cab or with my ear on the grillcloth, I don't hear them. I understand the difference between live and recorded tone, this just seems like more than that.

-I've heard some unbelievable clips posted on this forum and I'm utterly failing at capturing similar tones. A lot of them talk about how easy it was to dial in. Most of the patches posted are pretty similar to mine. This is leading me think I'm just doing something wrong or something in my setup is broken.

Anyway, thanks for the help everybody.

Totally agree with this.

No matter what I try, it's just there. The second I switch between my real cab and the Reactor it's the first thing I notice. It's nasty and ear grating. I've seen so many great videos and clips online that don't suffer from this although I have hears some higher gain clips that suffer from the same issue. After playing for a while, I get used to it but when I go back to my real cabs it sounds so much sweeter. I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong that others are doing or if I have an issue with my setup in one way or another.