Anyone using MIDI triggers live to control patch changes?

we used some backing tracks of electronic drums in out genesis tribute. i set it up in ableton live. i used a korg nanokontrol to trigger the tracks, so i didn't have to use a mouse or the trackpad and it also gave me some control over the levels. it also enabled me to send the drummer a click and a mix of the backing on separate outs to his headphones. it would have been simple to add a midi clip with control data in each scene for patch changes. ableton is very stable for live use. there are some tips and tricks to setting it up i could give you if you decide to go this route, which took me ages to figure out by myself.
 
solo-act said:
Just curious, do any of you triggering songs for automation have instant random access to any song in your show without having to literally mouse around on a laptop or touchscreen? If so, how are you doing it?
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In reaper for example one way to do this would be to arrange all your backing tracks and automation into one project. Then use a marker at the start of each song with a cc# attached to it. By sending the corresponding cc# you could cue whatever track you want (you could even cue and start playback with a custom action or simply use MMC controls to start and stop playback)

It didnt't find a way to create custom actions that open specific files or switch project tabs and cue them this way as opposed to the method above (having the entire show in one project) but if anyone has that might be neater?
 
i did the the same in ableton. have a specific button on the nanokontrol trigger a specific tune

if you have a set list, you can always order the backing tracks like that andthen when one finishes, it cues up the next one, so all you have to do is hit play. or not...it can play itself automatically if you want
 
Anyone ever use Mainstage for running background tracks with midi? I purchased it for this reason, but haven't had time to sit down with it. It was only $30 and I already have Logic Pro X, and I also needed it as a backup for my keyboard player's rig, so it hasn't been a total waste.
 
i think you'd be better off using logic. mainstage isn't really set up for that, as far as i know. backing tracks, yes...but midi tracks no.

even logic will be a bit clunky. you'd need a separate project for each tune, as you can't change the master tempo on the fly (when you change tracks). i went through all these options before settling on ableton live. there may be a way to do it. others can chime in.
 
Well I love me some Periphery and they use Pro Tools for MIDI changes for 3-4 Axe-FX units, plus click, plus backing tracks for bass, keys and ambient swirly effects stuff, and their show are freakin' slicker than whale snot.

Not that I'm a fan of Pro Tools, really. They only use it for that. Everything else I'm pretty sure they do in Cubase.
 
vangrieg said:
Oh, I'm sure you did. Like, you cannot simultaneously use Axe-Edit and, say, your MFC, right? Why? Because it can't handle multiple MIDI streams well at all. Or fast-coming MIDI commands.

Now, if your automation is very simple (i.e. you change scenes once in a while) and you aren't using any other controller simultaneously, you'll be fine.

However, I've had a ton of headache trying to make it change scenes AND (almost simultaneously) launch an LFO to control the sequencer AND start looper playback. Basically what I got was a very inconsistent result, different from time to time, unpredictably. It could fail to launch the LFO or start it later than needed, or what not.

Part of the problem is limitation of the MIDI protocol itself, I guess. Part of it is that Axe FX only handles one MIDI channel. Part of it, I think, is that MIDI has low priority.

You can also see limitations in the wishlist thread - like people asking for a VU meter in Axe-Edit.

Axe FX's MIDI implementation isn't all that great, and that's probably to hardware limitations, unfortunately, so I expect no big improvements until Axe FX III, if it ever comes out.

It would be even better if Fractal got rid of MIDI for Axe Edit at all, and made a control plugin using some protocol really utilizing the fast connection we have through USB.
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I had MIDI issues using the Axe MIDI out to control 2 other MIDI devices until I added a Kenton Thru 5! Not a MIDI problem since!
 
simeon said:
if you have a set list, you can always order the backing tracks like that andthen when one finishes, it cues up the next one, so all you have to do is hit play. or not...it can play itself automatically if you want
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How do you make Ableton cue to a marker and stop? I guess you do it in Arrangement? Are you using some third party script? I tried ClyphX for that, but there’s some latency and it “misses” the locators by a few milliseconds.
 
no idea, sorry

it's best to have each backing track in a separate scene in ableton, rather than have all the backing tracks in one audio file and start and stop at certain points
 
simeon said:
no idea, sorry

it's best to have each backing track in a separate scene in ableton, rather than have all the backing tracks in one audio file and start and stop at certain points
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Yes, Session view and scenes can do it. There’s a problem though, you cannot automate tempo and signature changes in a Session view clip. So I break songs into sections with tempo/signature changes, which works just fine except in some cases, when the content of a Scene finishes playing it needs to launch the next Scene, and sometimes just cue to the next one and stop. Ableton cannot do it by itself, so I have to use a Max for Live device called Scene Control. Which makes it somewhat of a pain because I need to fiddle with automation and launch quantization settings, and you need Suite for using M4L. Wish there were a simpler way.
 
there's clip actions, which tell ableton what to do when a clip finishes playing - stop, cue the next one,play the next one, jump to a random one, but i don't think this applies to whole scenes does it? for tempo changes, i just put "tempo 122bpm" in the scene name and then it directs the global tempo to change to that. again, i don't know whether you have to launch the scene manually for this to take effect...i didn't delve too much into automation. i just figured out how to get it to work for me, took some aspirin and had a little lie down with a nice cup of tea and a biscuit.
someone would probably make some money if they developed a really streamlined app that just did all this stuff really well
 
simeon said:
as you can't change the master tempo on the fly (when you change tracks).
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yea of course you can do this (brainfreeze), by just setting up a global tempo track....duh

logic would actually be quite an easy way to do all this...up to a point. i don't think you could get it to stop automatically at a marker. but again, i could be wrong on this
 
Clip actions don’t apply to whole scenes, unfortunately. So if you try to automate tempo by putting it in the Scene’s name, it won’t work. This whole follow action stuff was made for electronic music first and foremost, here tempo and especially signature changes are rare, to say the least. Where they do occur, they are done manually just fine.

As for someone making money... Follow actions on scenes should be Ableton’s built-in functionality, I think. It really amazes me why it’s not there. So far I found two third party solutions made as M4L devices, Scene Control and Follow Scene. The latter is fairly advanced, allows to make interesting stuff and seems to be used by church players, with lots of different actions. And it costs money. Unfortunately, it crashes randomly for me. The former one is free, and was made quite a few years ago. But works, albeit with some quirks. You still need to buy the whole Suite for this to work, which is somewhat ridiculous.

In theory, it should be easy to create a device like that in Max. However, it is a very puzzling thing for me, I cannot even begin to understand how to approach programming it, even though I do have some software development experience.
 
Thanks everyone who has replied! I'm learning some new things, but I still have some confusion. Right now, we play all our tracks from iTunes on a MacBook Pro. The signal is fed to the console via an Apogee Duet. There is no interaction with he AxeII. I'm still unclear on a couple things:

1) Out of all the methods mentioned above, do any of them allow me to bounce the tracks to a smaller file and still keep the MIDI info baked in? Seems like running several hour-long sets from Logic would be an invitation for disaster in a live setting. For example: large files that could bog down the Laptop; inability to re-shuffle a play list on the fly; difficult to skip tracks on the fly; significant amount of time before each show to meticulously place tracks in order, and then pace them properly to allow for audience reaction and smooth flow. This doesn't seem "drummer-proof." In iTunes, our drummer can reshuffle tracks in a playlist, and quickly navigate through it for song skips, stops, etc.

2) Connecting the Axe to tracks via MIDI: What is your precise signal chain? Are long MIDI cables required? Are there risks with long MIDI cable runs? How is the MIDI cable interfaced with a laptop? I looked up the Kenton Thru 5 that was mentioned above. Looks nice and rugged, but it only has MIDI connections out. Is another box needed to convert the MIDI to USB, or do you use a cable adaptor?
 
I personally connect my Axe FX to my PC with a USB cable, but my laptop is right next to my Axe.

Otherwise I’d use MIDI. I have a sound card with MIDI ports. 5-7 meters wouldn’t be a long run, at least with a decent cable.

Your Apogee Duet doesn’t have MIDI ports. You need an interface with MIDI. Not necessarily a sound card, there are simpler USB dongles. Or more expensive boxes.
 
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The only suggestion I have is to plan a sensible solution and then stick with it. Whatever you are gonna use, it is gonna work in a way or in another.

I used to have a Midi sequencer send patch changes to my pedalboard (as a single point of control) and render a click to the drummer. The drummer was controlling the track start, stop, etc with a drum pad controller.
We prepared all the MIDI via protools from an export of our recording session and then, for live use, just iRig Midi (IIRC) from an iphone/ipad.

We were doing a lot of festivals and having a laptop lying around wasn't something we wanted to add.

Which gigs you do influence how you have to prepare IMHO, if you hit the road a lot, you have to prepare your laptop, hw sequencer, whatever accordingly.
 
vangrieg said:
By the way, one problem with this setup is Axe FX itself, which isn't awfully reliable with MIDI.
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It's always been reliable for me. I've been triggering patch changes on-stage (with Cakewalk) since the first version of the Axe-FX Standard, then the Ultra and now the Axe-FX II, without any single problem.
 
I also trigger Scene changes and effects on stage using MIDI. For very very simple tasks it works okay.

Maybe using the word “reliable” isn’t quite correct. Its capabilities are just way too limited for even moderately complex scenarios. Which may manifest itself in ignoring messages or executing them behind time.
 
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