Amp Speaker Page matched to cab?

[Clockwork Creep]

Probably a dumb Question, but:
Why is the Speaker page in the Amp block, not the cab block?

What about using real cabs? Don't these resonances and stuff appear for real, when using a real cab? Doesn't, in that case, the speaker page make it "Buttery butter" (Adds these resonances and drives as extra, even though the real cab already does them)?

 

[MNG]

I think the SPKR page parameters are critical if you are using real cabs with a power amp. You have to dial all the parameters in right, not just the resonance, for each cab that you have. I think this is a big part of achieving the 'amp in a room' sound and feel. The Axe absolutely can be an amp in the room, but you have to get this page dialed in right first.

It takes a lot of effort, but it is worth it - you can get that get that harmonic richness and feedback as well as the air and clarity of a real amp when you do. With 200 amp models though, it's a bit of a grind to do and it does put me off using more than just a few amps. I think that Cliff said that an Axe III could potentially capture feedback from a real cab and set these parameters automatically - I'd buy a III for that feature alone.

 

[Rex]

Probably a dumb Question, but:
Why is the Speaker page in the Amp block, not the cab block?

See post #14.

What about using real cabs? Don't these resonances and stuff appear for real, when using a real cab? Doesn't, in that case, the speaker page make it "Buttery butter" (Adds these resonances and drives as extra, even though the real cab already does them)?

If you're using a tube power amp, you probably have the power amp modeling turned off on the Axe, in which case the Speaker page won't be affecting anything, because it only affects the power amp modeling. If you're using a solid-state power amp, you probably have power-amp modeling turned on, because solid-state amps don't react to impedance as strongly as tube amps do.

 

[sumitagarwal]

Any updates on any of this? Has anyone started a sort of spreadsheet of speakers and cabs and their respective values?

So far I've been finding that I like the Ownhammer IR's with Alnico Blue in a Marshall 4x12, and so I've been grabbing my frequencies and Q from the AC-30 model, though I know this shouldn't be quite right due to cabinet geometry and open vs closed back (as @Rex expressed so helpfully and clearly above, the "squishiness" and impedance of the air in the speaker getting fed back through the transformer). Are there other factors in the amp at play here, such as output tube type etc? Or if we assume that the speaker type and cabinet build are *exactly* the same as the default for another amp I'll be successful if I simply copy the top line of the speaker page over?

I feel that if Fractal could get ahead of this hiccup/complexity it would go a long way to closing the gap with Kemper in terms of capturing the tone of the full signal chain and making it dead simple to achieving good tones quickly. I guess this is sort of where Tone Match comes into play, although like the Kemper then you begin to introduce a trade-off of reduced tweakability but still dramatically more than in a Kemper profile.

 

[Randalljax]

I though there was going to be a drop down that would select speaker type and then load defaults .Fractal mentioned that they had measured like 35 cabs . So if your mesa recto cab was in the drop down you could just load defaults ,same with the IRs you could select the ir
then select the cab type and defaults would load

 

[sumitagarwal]

I though there was going to be a drop down that would select speaker type and then load defaults .Fractal mentioned that they had measured like 35 cabs . So if your mesa recto cab was in the drop down you could just load defaults ,same with the IRs you could select the ir
then select the cab type and defaults would load

That would be amazing, has Cliff confirmed that somewhere??

 

[Rex]

...I know this shouldn't be quite right due to cabinet geometry and open vs closed back (as @Rex expressed so helpfully and clearly above, the "squishiness" and impedance of the air in the speaker getting fed back through the transformer). Are there other factors in the amp at play here, such as output tube type etc?

Amp circuitry and tube type do affect impedance, but you don't have to be concerned with that: the SPKR page in the Amp block deals with cab specs only. All the other circuitry is modeled independent of that, and it will react appropriately to the SPKR parameters.

 

[sumitagarwal]

Amp circuitry and tube type do affect impedance, but you don't have to be concerned with that: the SPKR page in the Amp block deals with cab specs only. All the other circuitry is modeled independent of that, and it will react appropriately to the SPKR parameters.

Thanks!

And would you say that Tone Match, when applied correctly to an amp and model, effectively merges the IR data with speaker data so that as long as you don't remove the Tone Match and don't change the amp model its unnecessary to adjust any speaker settings?

 

[Rex]

Thanks!

And would you say that Tone Match, when applied correctly to an amp and model, effectively merges the IR data with speaker data so that as long as you don't remove the Tone Match and don't change the amp model its unnecessary to adjust any speaker settings?

That's a tough call. When you do a Tone Match, you're matching to the cab that was used in the recording, and you don't know its impedance curve. When you're tone matching, you're matching the voicing only, not the impedance.

Don't get too hung up on exactly matching the impedance curve of the rig that you're matching to—because you can't; you don't have enough information to do that. If it sounds good, it is good, so no worries there. If you mess with the SPKR parameters and you don't hear or feel any improvement, still no worries.