• We would like to remind our members that this is a privately owned, run and supported forum. You are here at the invitation and discretion of the owners. As such, rules and standards of conduct will be applied that help keep this forum functioning as the owners desire. These include, but are not limited to, removing content and even access to the forum.

    Please give yourself a refresher on the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.

Amp Speaker Page matched to cab?

Ironwill

Experienced
Iam lost with the Amp Block speaker setting to getting the realest result match to my Cab IR.
Amp EVH 5150 Mk3 , default its matched to the EVH 4x12cab right?
Now when using it with my Mesa 4x12 IR, to me it feels not the best Low end, highs, how I can archieve the most real setting there, It gets better when I turn values like Low Res from 120 to 100 Hz.. but its not a easy way to match the cab.. . Then with the X Former settings iam totally lost..
Makes it sense to copy the setting from a Recto Head to my EVH 5153 speaker page because it was matched to Mesa cab or so?

A Speaker page template for the Amps matched to different Cabs responses would be awesome for me..

I know this part can't be modelled and need adjustment, very complex to understand to me,
Any easy. Advise?
 

mtmartin71

Experienced
Iam lost with the Amp Block speaker setting to getting the realest result match to my Cab IR.
Amp EVH 5150 Mk3 , default its matched to the EVH 4x12cab right?
Now when using it with my Mesa 4x12 IR, to me it feels not the best Low end, highs, how I can archieve the most real setting there, It gets better when I turn values like Low Res from 120 to 100 Hz.. but its not a easy way to match the cab.. . Then with the X Former settings iam totally lost..
Makes it sense to copy the setting from a Recto Head to my EVH 5153 speaker page because it was matched to Mesa cab or so?

A Speaker page template for the Amps matched to different Cabs responses would be awesome for me..

I know this part can't be modelled and need adjustment, very complex to understand to me,
Any easy. Advise?
Yeah...this is my least favorite thing on the AxeFX. I think, to some extent, this is what folks who like the Kemper would cite is that the process for that box captures the amp and speaker interacting so it's an ideal capture of the whole interaction. With the Axe, it's the pairing of two different items brought together by measurements/estimates but you can pick and choose cabs very easily. The Amp Factory plans on releasing a set of IRs called "Big Box" with presets that were dialed in to include the right speaker page measurements taken for a particular cab IR. Anyhow, I suggest just selecting the Mesa Recto amp and observing the speaker settings there and then going back to the EVH 5150 and adjusting just the top settings (low-mid-hi...not the transformer stuff) to match the Mesa Recto speaker settings. The low res is the most important. Sometimes I just dial it by ear to get the bass response I want.
 

5150

Inspired
As mtmartin71 said, dial the low res to the bass response you want by ear. But don't forget to dial the low and hi cut parameters in the Cab block -- they are useful to carve the exact tone you want.

Also, do not overlook the proximity settings. I've found this to be key to dialing in tones I want to hear. I generally increase the proximity parameter until it feels right, then fine tune the overall bass response with the low cut parameter in the Cab block, as well as the low res speaker frequency from the speaker page.
 

simeon

Axe-Master
just thinking about this....i wonder if there could be a dropdown to select presets based on speaker type? so select from a list of common speakers, like V30, G12T-75 etc etc... and the appropriate curve is loaded in. i don't really know whether it would really be worth the effort on cliff's part, because if you're interested to tweak this, it's easy to just look up what speakers are in any particular cab and then find out what the low resonant frequency is and add 10Hz. celestion publish this data for all their speakers. if you don't know what the resonant frequency is, it's fairly easy to find out by ear. just boost the low gain, increase the q and sweep across while palm muting. when you hear it go thump! you've found it.
 

mtmartin71

Experienced
just thinking about this....i wonder if there could be a dropdown to select presets based on speaker type? so select from a list of common speakers, like V30, G12T-75 etc etc... and the appropriate curve is loaded in. i don't really know whether it would really be worth the effort on cliff's part, because if you're interested to tweak this, it's easy to just look up what speakers are in any particular cab and then find out what the low resonant frequency is and add 10Hz. celestion publish this data for all their speakers. if you don't know what the resonant frequency is, it's fairly easy to find out by ear. just boost the low gain, increase the q and sweep across while palm muting. when you hear it go thump! you've found it.
Yep...the +10 is a good approach. Here's what I've found though...in general.

-Mesa, Diezel, and Orange cabs (the larger 4x12s) are in the 90-105Hz low end res per stock settings
-Bogner is in the 110Hz range.
-Marshall is in the 110-114Hz range

This is all with 75Hz speakers. If we used the +10hz logic, everything should sit at 85. But...I do find some cabs need more or less bass. For example, the OH Marshall CB is very bass heavy. I set it around 90-100Hz. The OH Marshall TV and the Fractal (Friedman) 4x12 GB or V30 need the low end resonance up around 115Hz.
 

adew

Inspired
Very interesting topic. I have always struggled to understand (despite reading the relevant part of the User Manual many times) what, exactly, the Amp Speaker tab is all about. Re-reading the Manual, it says "These parameters shape the virtual speaker impedance curve and the resulting resonances in the virtual power amp. Amp/Speaker interaction causes an increase in power amplifier response at certain frequencies, affecting the tone." Presumably this interaction depends on the model of speaker paired with the amp (which is what I think Simeon was getting at, about having the ability to select idealised speaker curves based on speaker type). So, when I load an Amp model, what is determining the default parameters shown on the Amp Speaker tab? The amp alone? An assumed amp/speaker pairing? Or something else?

If someone can explain all this in a simple fashion that a guitarist (rather than electrical/audio engineer) can understand, I would be grateful! :)

My main interest is that I always struggle with too much bass in my presets, and apart from obvious parameters such as Amp block low cut, I'm never entirely sure what I should be tweaking.

(Sorry OP, for hijacking slightly. But I think the question is relevant to yours.)
 

RDH

Fractal Fanatic
just thinking about this....i wonder if there could be a dropdown to select presets based on speaker type? so select from a list of common speakers, like V30, G12T-75 etc etc... and the appropriate curve is loaded in. i don't really know whether it would really be worth the effort on cliff's part, because if you're interested to tweak this, it's easy to just look up what speakers are in any particular cab and then find out what the low resonant frequency is and add 10Hz. celestion publish this data for all their speakers. if you don't know what the resonant frequency is, it's fairly easy to find out by ear. just boost the low gain, increase the q and sweep across while palm muting. when you hear it go thump! you've found it.

Isn't the cab resonance what to look for instead of the speaker resonant frequency ?
 

Hellbat

Fractal Fanatic
The new bundled preset&IR function should help to improve this issue in cases where the bundler is paying attention to these parameters.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RDH

Moke

Axe-Master
Vendor
Correct me if I'm wrong....

I remember in the very early firmware versions, the "Speaker Page" being in the "Cab" block? The resonance frequency data was loaded as part of the "IR"? This made more sense to me as I use "IRs" and "FRFR" monitoring. Especially when using multiple "IRs"

But I guess the issue of not being able to match the resonance frequency to a traditional guitar cab led to it being moved to the "Amp" block? Which made it a little easier for the traditional guitar cab users. Once you find the right resonance frequency data for your cab, just use those settings in every amp sim.

The "IR" users have to research the resonance frequency data for the speaker and cabinet? Enter it in the "Amp" block for each "amp" and "IR" combination.

What about multiple "IRs"?? Which resonance frequency data do you use?
What about using "IRs" and a traditional guitar cab at the same time? Which resonance frequency data do you use?

Lots to consider...............


Honestly, I don't even touch these parameters because of the complexities. I just find an "IR" that sounds right and go with it. Maybe the "IR" I end up choosing accidentally somewhat matches the resonance frequency data in the chosen amp sim which may be why I chose that "IR"??
 
Last edited:

Rex

Legend!
Yep...the +10 is a good approach. Here's what I've found though...in general...

This is all with 75Hz speakers. If we used the +10hz logic, everything should sit at 85. But...I do find some cabs need more or less bass. For example, the OH Marshall CB is very bass heavy. I set it around 90-100Hz. The OH Marshall TV and the Fractal (Friedman) 4x12 GB or V30 need the low end resonance up around 115Hz.
Different cabs with identical speakers will have different resonant frequencies.
 

Rex

Legend!
Very interesting topic. I have always struggled to understand (despite reading the relevant part of the User Manual many times) what, exactly, the Amp Speaker tab is all about. ...

If someone can explain all this in a simple fashion that a guitarist (rather than electrical/audio engineer) can understand, I would be grateful! :)
The amp's speaker page models the impedance of the speaker. Real speakers don't have constant impedance. The impedance is different at different frequencies. Speaker impedance peaks out at the resonant frequency (somewhere in the bass region), then dips back down at slightly higher frequencies, then gradually climbs as the frequency rises. For example, what we call an "8-ohm" speaker might actually have an impedance of 80 ohms at its resonant frequency.

To see an example of what a typical speaker impedance curve looks like, just go to the Speaker page in your amp block. That graph shows the speaker's impedance at different frequencies.


So why do we care about the impedance curve? Because an amp reacts differently as impedance changes. The higher the impedance, the stronger the amp's output gets. So if the impedance changes with frequency, that means the amp's output is also different at different frequencies. And that means that speaker impedance will affect the frequency response of the amp itself.

It also means that your power amp will distort more at frequencies where the impedance is higher. And that changes the character of your amp's gain.


IRs have no way to store information about the impedance of your speaker. That's why the "Speaker" page has always been in the Amp block. The information on the Speaker page directly affects how the amp reacts. It doesn't affect how the speaker reacts.
 
Lol just reading some posts on this page...just when I thought I was Johnny Big Balls, realise how little knowledge I have of this monster piece of kit. Just reading it makes me want to try something easier like splitting the atom..or world peace.
 

Rex

Legend!
Lol just reading some posts on this page...just when I thought I was Johnny Big Balls, realise how little knowledge I have of this monster piece of kit. Just reading it makes me want to try something easier like splitting the atom..or world peace.
Don't sweat it. I bet you're getting some tones you love out of the Axe right now. The deeper knowledge will come in its own time, if you pursue it. If not, you already know you don't need it to make the box sing. There's still stuff in there I don't know, and there will be for a long time.

And that's why there's such a strong market for Line 6 and other products. Some people look at the Axe and see all the things they could tweak. It overwhelms them and makes them want to, as you say, try something easier.
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
IRs have no way to store information about the impedance of your speaker. That's why the "Speaker" page has always been in the Amp block. The information on the Speaker page directly affects how the amp reacts. It doesn't affect how the speaker reacts.
A proprietary .syx file can store arbitrary data?
 

RDH

Fractal Fanatic
It seems this subject always gets tossed out the window, but it shouldn't , seems to me matching up to the cab resonance is a pretty important factor to authenticity. The speaker resonance + 10% rule works pretty well for open back cabs ,but will still be different for 1x12 as opposed to 2x12 ! However not accurate for closed back cabs . The recent 4x12 AX cab.eu pack had a 114hz resonance listed in the info ! Why can't this be included with all cab packs? Yes different speakers will make the resonance point change , but with a low res point , say 114 w/ 75hz greenback , it,s easy to adjust the difference from one speaker type to the next,ex:55hz cone,or 90hz, there is an accurate starting point! The low res for a TV cab will be lower than the AX etc! S what is the low res for a TV cab? Most users won 't be able to determine that .
 

Finaldo

Inspired
It may have been mentioned a while ago that the speaker tab is on the amp block because there isn't a good way for the blocks to communicate data to each other besides the input and output of the Axe-Fx's input signal. I didn't look for an actual quote though, I just vaguely remember someone, maybe Cliff, saying that.
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
It may have been mentioned a while ago that the speaker tab is on the amp block because there isn't a good way for the blocks to communicate data to each other besides the input and output of the Axe-Fx's input signal. I didn't look for an actual quote though, I just vaguely remember someone, maybe Cliff, saying that.
I think you are correct.

But, the data could be manually loaded separately into the amp block speaker page.
 
Top Bottom