Implemented A Klon-type Drive block

A particular troll came out from under his bridge and beat the drum for this model in a most ungracious and cantankerous manner, even taking the Klon Wars outside the forum. The worst of internet trashiness. The pedal has been that "He who shall not be named" in the Wish List ever since, not so much for anyone's request that it be, but for me personally as a token of respect for FAS, and the abuse endured over it.

In the end, it is one pedal, and a pedal the overwhelming majority of us have never personally used. I wouldn't know I was listening to it unless someone told me. The creator of the Klon demonstrates several versions here:
which is as close to playing one as I have gotten! Unfortunately some people have become very childish, tantrum throwing individuals when told no. Such is our world.

That's my take only, not as a spokesman for anyone but me.


Thanks for your explanation.

That individual is the one I referred to and his behaviour was appalling. It's unfortunate that everyone else ends up missing out if that is indeed the reason, but it's not hard to understand.
 
PSA Solution - buy one on eBay and loop it into your signal chain, done.

I have a Ceriatone klone (which seems to be considered the closest to the real thing you can get, I use it with the Axe-FX and it really does sound fantastic). Putting it in the loop is a workable, but not perfect solution. It would be nice not to have the extra weight, not to have to deal with the additional power supply, to be able to programme it for different patches. etc.

But yeah, it's just a nice to have. The various klones are not expensive so it's not difficult for anyone who really needs one to go that route.
 
Is this true? I don't recall this ever being said.
This is correct... Never was said by anyone working at Fractal. It's just my take on why this particular pedal isn't there. Then again, the King of Tone isn't there either and Analog Mike has never said a nasty word toward anyone here, so what do I know. I just added a KoT of my own. This six string fool ain't springing for the stupid prices a Centaur is going for though!
 
It may simply be a matter of “principle” that Cliff feels the tonal character of many pedals, including the Klon, can be closely appropriated with the current models.

I don’t think FAS adds things just for namesake or bragging rights.

Look at how many different amps and pedals exist in the hardware world, but, how many of those are that unique ?

Take another popular OD, the Tube Screamer. We’ve got 2 as is, but how many countless dozen brands have their own take on the TS? Pretty much every booteek builder has one, of not more than one, to which, how silly would it be if we had 20 different TS models.

Cliff seems to try to add things he feel are missing, and that can’t otherwise be achieved with existing models.

I think if there was no was to come close to the sound of a Klon no matter what you tried, he probably would of added it sooner. Perhaps he listens to clips where the Axe can sound near identical, at certain settings, and thinks “that tone is already in there, I’ve got hundreds of other things I want to work on first”...

Maybe he just doesn’t like the hype. Maybe he doesn’t like everything that resulted in a good pedal becoming this absurd $1500 thing that it has today, with all the resulting lore and opinions et al., that surround it and any discussion of it today.

Maybe he’s friends with Bill and was asked not to be yet another one of the countless folks who cloned it ?

Maybe he simply drew a line in the sand and said it’s not happening, don’t bother asking. His company and he answers to no one.

Regardless, it’s not owed to anyone, it was never promised, no one bought a unit expecting it to be there or come soon, and if one never comes, it’s stll a fantastic modeler and will be a fantastic modeler.
 
There are some other modelers that do have a Klon type setting, and I don’t see anyone raving about them
The Minotaur is my most used OD on my Helix. It's in nearly every patch :D

Should be according to who?
This whole argument is essentially the "that's a first-world problem..." - in other words, sure, you're right, but it doesn't progress the discussion. The market as a whole has demands and while you can claim a few of us are whiny, entitled b*****s, really it comes down to expectations as the state of the art evolves. There is significant disconnect when a company like FAS doesn't include this model yet LIne 6 does as do every Joe Schmoe small pedal builder. FAS is quite literally the top name in the industry. From an outside perspective, it makes absolutely zero business or customer service sense to not include something that constantly gets asked for that's unbelievably popular that others have done and that, presumably, FAS could do better.

I mean, look at how many features and blocks and models there are in this thing (some of which I wouldn't doubt that no one literally ever uses ever) yet something that has obvious demand and would be immediately put in probably tens of thousands of presets as soon as it was released in a beta FW update gets passed by.

For the record, I don't really care; I'm very happy with my Axe III; but for the sake of polemics, this is a fascinating subject and the disconnect between what "should be" and what "is" is nearly impossible to ignore.
 
As I said, part of the beauty of starting and running ones own company is you don’t have to follow what the industry does, or what you “should” do.

People seem to love that FAS isn’t like other companies in most regards. Other brands put out an update once or twice a year. FAS is great because they have steady updates, etc etc. Then at the same time, we complain FAS doesn’t do soemthing L6, Boss etc does.....

Do we want them to just follow what the industry does, or do their own thing ?

We bought it because it’s not L6, but we’d still like them to copy just the specific things l6 does that we like ?
 
As I said, part of the beauty of starting and running ones own company is you don’t have to follow what the industry does, or what you “should” do.

People seem to love that FAS isn’t like other companies in most regards. Other brands put out an update once or twice a year. FAS is great because they have steady updates, etc etc. Then at the same time, we complain FAS doesn’t do soemthing L6, Boss etc does.....

Do we want them to just follow what the industry does, or do their own thing ?

We bought it because it’s not L6, but we’d still like them to copy just the specific things l6 does that we like ?

You're not wrong. It just seems odd and arbitrary to draw the line here, given the obvious demand.

This, of course, calls into question whether or not customers "deserve" the various updates. I see this on the Helix forums all the time; someone complains about the dearth of content in an update and they're immediately met with a chorus of how grateful they should be yadda yadda yadda. Well, for me, I expect that. To me, that's part of what makes the price worth it; the longevity, content updates, support, etc. So it's perfectly reasonable to be dissatisfied with an update. We aren't poor beggars groveling at the heels of these companies begging for table scraps. We're paying customers and part of that price was the expectation that new models would be eventually added and things improved and supported. Now, if I bought a Pod 2.0 Bean, then might be out of line to expect continued support.

And frankly, there's been very little in the last umpteen updates in the Axe III that have at all affected anything about the way I do business. I'm sure a lot of the features and tweaks have made many people happy, but every time I read the release notes, it's pretty unremarkable - but again, that's because I'm a meat and potatoes kinda player. I don't care about multiplexers and floor reflections in cabs and adding LFOs to whatever (see, I don't even have the language to use hyperbole lol!).

And you're right - we don't want them to copy the things Line 6 does - we want them to do it better! Like my idea as mentioned above: why not knock us all dead with the "MultiClon" an OD model that captures the characteristics of various Klons and klones it could even have an option to have an effect on pedals down the line (as was mentioned earlier as one of the Klon's charms). Bam. Already better than Line 6 and better than incorporating outboard pedals. Many of us didn't buy this "because it's not Line 6"; in fact many of us have the Helix as well. I bought it as the perfect all-in-one gigging solution that is cream of the crop and state of the art in modeling - and because I knew of Cliff's reputation for incorporating his customers' requests. Granted, before I became a FAS user, I heard MANY terrible things about these forums, but as of yet I have yet to experience that, thankfully ;)

I appreciate the discussion. This is all very interesting to me.
 
I completely agree with most of the above ^ (with the exception that some of the updates have blown my mind!)

I'm completely in Fractal/III - but the one thing I'm tempted by when I get a bigger board for the eventual FC12 is to put on either my Klon KTR and/or my King of Tone - to run in front of the Axe.

Now truth be told I'm so happy with the unit I don't think I will - but it would be really nice to have either of those units properly inside the box.
 
Is this true? I don't recall this ever being said.

Ian - it was 'implied' or stated based on the degree to which RR pressed the issue making threats:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/wish-romeo-rose-signature-klon.101136/page-3#post-1213695

The other threads where the community & FAS 'won' is gone, but we who were here can quantify the effort it took to arrive there. I would say based on that level of response and the cadence in which Cliff posts (I am certainly not speaking FOR Cliff or FAS), I would take this as an indication that it was a determined inference.

Thoughts? Comments? I'm curious your take @iaresee.
 
Ian - it was 'implied' or stated based on the degree to which RR pressed the issue making threats:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/wish-romeo-rose-signature-klon.101136/page-3#post-1213695

The other threads where the community & FAS 'won' is gone, but we who were here can quantify the effort it took to arrive there. I would say based on that level of response and the cadence in which Cliff posts (I am certainly not speaking FOR Cliff or FAS), I would take this as an indication that it was a determined inference.

Thoughts? Comments? I'm curious your take @iaresee.
That quoted post you linked to doesn’t imply or state anything about why there is or isn’t a Klon in the unit. Cliff is speaking about his interactions with that user, nothing else. How do you get to that conclusion from that post?
 
For the record, I don't really care; I'm very happy with my Axe III; but for the sake of polemics, this is a fascinating subject and the disconnect between what "should be" and what "is" is nearly impossible to ignore.

Let me be clear that I was not attempting to polarize parties here. I feel the balance between appeasement of customers, the macro/micro demands of fulfilling orders, and the actual improvement cadence that FAS does so well on in creating and more importantly maintaining a world-class product.

I was using some stronger-than-normal language to really understand the "why you need it' and perhaps it's due to me not hearing the sonic amazingness of these niche drive pedals of Klon. It's the societal woe of first-world problem declarations as you indicated @decreebass that has me concerned. More from a velocity/scalability conversation, how many of the artists playing in front of thousands per night (big & medium names) using FAS gear are asking for the Klon? I don't have that answer, but it sure would be an intriguing enlightenment to see if artists or guitarists 'in the industry' are asking for it.

I'm neutral and was attempting to be provocative in the understanding. Cheers to all, keep it rockin'!
 
How do you get to that conclusion from that post?

My logical path:
  1. Cliff started a thread entitled Wish: Romeo Rose Signature Klon
  2. The community piled on as a 'this is okay to participate' thread
  3. Cliff linked 'you get my wrath' to the reality of that wish not coming true at least for a while (making it personal) [dated June 18, 2015]
  4. There have been numerous asks for this since without an official statement stating the case; There is always possibility something is in the works making this whole conversation potentially meaningless (conjecture/speculation) :wink::grimacing:
  5. I am not saying it will never happen, I am trying to present the argument as to why this has not happened yet
I wanted to understand the 'why' is all. Even from the clips, the videos, the history, etc., I do not see why 37 drive models cannot suit a fancy for overdrive... #ZenmasterFTW #ObviouslyMyFave

I hope that answered at least a portion of your question Ian, cheers.
 
Cliff linked 'you get my wrath' to the reality of that wish not coming true at least for a while (making it personal) [dated June 18, 2015]
The "wrath" thing was just in reference to the thread. Not the lack of a Klon model.

I seriously doubt one bad user keeps a Klon model in the unit at bay.
 
It's the societal woe of first-world problem declarations as you indicated @decreebass that has me concerned.
All I meant was that a lot of times you see a gear discussion where someone complains about something and someone chimes in with the obligatory "First-world problem." comment. Like, yeah, pal, we know we're fighting for clean water, but in the context of gear, this matter is important.

Now, of course, I'm not AT ALL saying you said anything along those lines, especially in any sort of socioeconomic sense, just that denouncing the merits of someone saying "should" or "should not" wasn't productive since people only use those words in an effort to describe their own logical conclusions based on previous experience and expectations; not that anyone thinks FAS has an actual obligation to do as such. It's like when someone claims Stephen Hawking or Richard Dawkins as religious because they may have said something along the lines of, "God only knows..." - it's just not a productive part of the discussion to get hung up on :p

Now that I've overexplained, I think I've made things worse lol!

But you elaborated and I can't disagree with your reasoning. Also, you may have convinced me to give the Zen Drive a go - I never really looked into it at all :cool:
 
Also, you may have convinced me to give the Zen Drive a go - I never really looked into it at all

Success! You may fall in love with it... I actually discovered it when I tried recreating John Mayer's rig with a Two-Rock J35, a zen master out front, then some FX. Man oh man, the Zenmaster is seriously my fave for all amp sims.. It's so sonically diverse.

I seriously doubt one bad user keeps a Klon model in the unit at bay.

I hear ya bro, and you're right as per usual. Most likely it'll happen someday.

REGARDLESS OF ANY OF THE ABOVE, FRACTAL AUDIO IS DA BOMB. WHY AM I YELLING? WHERE'S BRICK?

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I did a quick IR capture of my Ceriatone Centura, which people might find useful. IR obviously only captures the EQ and not the gain structure so I captured it with the gain on the pedal set low; around 9 o'clock. I also find the Centura to be a little dark for my tastes so the tone was set on about 1 o'clock.

A few things I've found:
-Putting it after at FET Boost drive block with a little drive and all EQ set flat gets me somewhere in the ballpark of what I do with the Centura, but there is definitely something still missing.

-Interestingly on the IR capture utility the spectrum graph was a very smooth curve. I was expecting something more complex. It could be that I need to spend more time experimenting with settings and take a better capture, but it seems that what the Klon does in terms of EQ to the signal is not particularly noteworthy. There's a gentle roll-off of the high end and a steeper roll-off of the very low end. You can get close with a PEQ, though I like the IR better.

-If there really is something missing and it's not psychoacoustics, and it's not what it does to the EQ, then the 'magic' must be something else it does to the signal. And if I had to guess I'd say it's the buffer. And if that's correct, then there isn't that much reason to have one in the Axe-FX because the input is buffered anyway.

Caveat: I'm obviously making a lot of assumptions and my 'experiments' are far from rigorous, so consider the above a hypothesis rather than a conclusion.
 

Attachments

The Klon circuit is an odd one in that the drive control is a mix between a distorted signal and a clean boosted signal. So the behaviour is very different dependong on where the drive knob is at. Might be worth experimenting with the mix control on the drive block, or running two drives in parallel too.
 
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