Implemented "3D" circular delay

yek said:
It's still different from the clip in the OP, because the one in the OP does a full 360, covering rear and front.
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There might be something missing from Leon's implementation. Maybe @2112 can pull his friend into the discussion and with @FractalAudio's input the exact thing can be replicated.

As is, I like Leon's Spiral Delay. I'd forgotten about it.
 
yek said:
Yeah, that's the spiral delay I was referring to.

It's still different from the clip in the OP, because the one in the OP does a full 360, covering rear and front.
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Yep, cool too but different for sure.
I recorded another sample that maybe gives a better idea of how it works:
 
yek said:
Last clip doesn't demonstrate it as clearly as the OP.
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Yeah, probably becomes a little too crowded after a while... 😅
But I was trying to demonstrate what isn't achievable with a simple LFO-driven panner and that should be hearable at the beginning of the clip: the moment I play the second time, the repeats of the first chord are "behind" while the new ones start "in front", and then they basically start chasing each other (the first moves from behind to left while the second moves from front to right, and so on in full circle)
 
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DLC86 said:
Yeah, probably becomes a little too crowded after a while... 😅
But I was trying to demonstrate what isn't achievable with a simple LFO-driven panner and that should be hearable at the beginning of the clip: the moment I play the second time, the repeats of the first chord are "behind" while the new ones start "in front", and then they basically start chasing each other (the first moves from behind to left while the second moves from front to right, and so on in full circle)
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Recorded another sample, this time should be 100% clear what I was saying

 
DLC86 said:
Well, it's a wish thread for a specific delay type/feature, usually I don't see people discussing how vacuum tubes work or how were invented when someone requests a new amp model.
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True. But you will see vacuum-tube theory discussed in Wish threads that evolve into how to accomplish the goal with what we have. I dropped it here in case it's of any value to forum members who are currently working on the problem.

Could it use its own thread? Sure. But I only get a few minutes here and there to jump on the forum, so I'll leave such a thread to others, should they wish it.
 
After some experimentation I think I've finally cracked the code (kind of):
Basically in the feedback loop there's an algorithm that does the same thing as the "Rotation" parameter in this plugin (Waves S1):

1761343882537.png

With this plugin placed in the feedback loop of a delay, the range of 0° to +45° produces pretty much identical results to the 0-50 range of Sonulab's "Stereo Bouncing" parameter (so it covers half of what that parameter does on the pedal), to cover the full range it probably would need to go at least to 90° (if anyone knows of a similar plugin which allows for a wider range, please let me know).

By looking at what that plugin does to the signal, I managed to replicate the exact setting you see in the pic, which is basically Sonulab's "4 points" setting (Stereo Bouncing set to 50) that you hear in my video. You can find it in the first scene of the attached preset.

Basically I put a couple filter blocks and a couple volume blocks in a feedback loop with a stereo delay block, processing each channel separately.
For the left channel I just set the pan to 0 so that the signal is basically copied to the right channel at the same level.
Same thing for the right channel but with the phase inverted on the left.
So, after one repeat, L becomes "center-front" (aka both channels at same level and in-phase) and R becomes "behind" (both channels at same level but out-of-phase), thus if the signal in the two original channels is identical it's only heard on the right cuz on the left it's canceled out. And since all this is in a feedback loop, it keeps rotating at each repeat.

Replicating slower settings is a bit trickier though (see scene 2) and I haven't really grasped how to do it reliably, but basically you need to tweak the panning/balance of each channel in those filter blocks... the problem is that the behaviour for the right channel, since it involves the phase inversion, doesn't seem "linear" at all and the whole thing is very convoluted (at least for the way this preset is built which might not be the 100% correct way to do this), doing it with the plugin instead is definitely much easier (obviously), so I'd say the wish is still valid :sweatsmile:
 

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Rex said:
Human hearing has no reliable way to tell whether a sound is coming from in front of you/behind you, or above you/below you. We can only hear the difference between left and right.

When we hear a sound, we have to guess whether it’s in front or behind. So our brain chooses one or the other, pretty much randomly. Something as small as a room reflection can influence our choice. So can our expectations of where we think it ought to be.

Put on some headphones and listen to some binaural recordings. You’ll feel the weirdness and uncertainty of front-to-back location.
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I love how confidently incorrect you are
 
Rex said:
Human hearing has no reliable way to tell whether a sound is coming from in front of you/behind you, or above you/below you. We can only hear the difference between left and right.
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Human hearing can discern sound in all three dimensions: left-right, front-back and top-bottom.
It's pretty common across mammals, afaik.
 
Alright Then Keep Your Secrets GIF by hero0fwar
 
FractalAudio said:
This isn't done with an LFO. I think I know how it's done but I don't want to post how it's done.
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I was able to get something sort of close using the megatap delay. That's more panned and placed delay taps rather than just panning the feedback. I could get the multiple sounds chasing each other thing, but it was tough to control the pan pattern just using pan alpha. That also didn't tackle the front to back element of it either.
 
FractalAudio said:
I doubt it's done using discrete delay taps like in the Megatap Delay. The "rear" echo is done by inverting the phase of one side.
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Yep, using that waves s1 in the feedback loop I got it sounding pretty much the same (at least for half the control range) and was able to somewhat replicate some specific settings in the preset I shared previously
 
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Messing with the locations of the inputs to and outputs from the feedback loop relative to where the panning takes place gives some pretty cool variations.
 
So you can do this in the box already with the Dual Delay type.

Example:
Type: Dual Delay
Feedback L: 50%
Feedback R: 50%
Feedback L->R: 33%
Feedback R->L: -33%

Basically you want your "feedback matrix" to be:
Code: 
|    a    b    |
|   -b    a    |

The value of 'b' determines how fast the echoes "circulate".

If you change the sign of 'b' the echoes will move in the other direction.

If you invert the phase of one of the channels the echoes will start behind you.
 
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