11 Rack... Is Cliff a law breaker?!?

Haven't read through the whole thread, but the issue is how one accounts the sale of the device or program. When I worked at Microsoft, we never gave shipping updates with features a thought, because the way sales were accounted for, not everything was booked when the sale is made. Some revenue is held back. When I went to Macromedia/Adobe, it was a different situation and suddenly you couldn't add features without charging. Of course customers view this simply as the company wanting to charge people.

One other example of this is that for Apple, iPods were booked when sold, while iPhones were accounted for with some revenue held back. This is why (prior to 4.0) you had to pay for the upgraded OS on the iPod while you got it for free on the iPhone.

It's really a drag and an instance of where our tax system inhibits innovation. Every time I hear "revenue recognition" come up, I want to scream.

Mark
 
(Sorry for the OT)

I think most people simply skipped Vista due to the horrible reviews.
Also, Microsoft has done this before with XP.

Windows 2000 is version 5.0.
XP is version 5.1.
Vista is version 6.0.
Windows 7 is version 6.1.

It seems that their philosophy is that you buy a certain feature set and then get crash and security fixes for free, but not major new features such as the new UI in Windows 7. For that you have to buy the OS again. Having said that, I personally don't think that Apple is any better. Worse if anything. Microsoft is a lot more open and developer friendly than Apple, so I'm not sure if I'd prefer Apple and MS to switch places as the dominant OS. :?

EDIT: MS explains the version numbers: http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/arch ... why-7.aspx
 
tgunn said:
It seems that their philosophy is that you buy a certain feature set and then get crash and security fixes for free, but not major new features such as the new UI in Windows 7. For that you have to buy the OS again.

Actually, that's a too limited view of what Microsoft produces. For example, what I worked on was ASP.NET and the .NET Framework and that was delivered out of band from any OS and it was a major set of features. In general, they don't provide many new features for service packs, but you would actually be surprised by what "a feature" is. It can be very minor - ANY new functionality. MS argued that IE was "part of the OS", yet they've shipped tons of new features not part of an actual OS release.
 
Mark said:
Actually, that's a too limited view of what Microsoft produces. For example, what I worked on was ASP.NET and the .NET Framework and that was delivered out of band from any OS and it was a major set of features. In general, they don't provide many new features for service packs, but you would actually be surprised by what "a feature" is. It can be very minor - ANY new functionality. MS argued that IE was "part of the OS", yet they've shipped tons of new features not part of an actual OS release.
True. My post reads overly negative which wasn't my intention. I'm very familiar with .NET, Visual Studio, etc being a C++ developer for longer than I care to admit (in fact I should be writing code right now!). I appreciate MS' commitment to developers and .net is no small thing - end users might not realize it though.
 
Hi folks. This is my first post here.

I recently bought an 11R. Nice unit. I wanted to comment on the upgrade discussion.

point 1: I bought the 11R with full knowledge that I don't want Pro Tools (LE or otherwise) and that I'd be giving up certain functionality (reamping, computer-based editor and even patch backup (!!!) - by not installing Pro Tools. Those are tradeoffs I was willing to make to get the 11R's sound and functionality for live performance and for recording via its analog interface. No regrets.

point 2: I bought the 11R because of the way it performed at the time I auditioned it in the store, not because I expected future enhancements or improvements.

point 3: The first thing I did after unboxing my 11R was to check the firmware version and update it to 1.03. I did this because Digidesign had already added what I considered to be features which improve the usability of the 11R as a live performance tool. No amp models, no FIR support, no looper, ... just a few modest improvements that made the product I had already bought easier to use. And it was free. The point here is: this update fixed some bugs, but was not just a bug-fix release. I hope no one will mention this to the Avid board of directors or the SEC. ;)



If Avid releases a for-pay firmware update I'll certainly give it a look and decide whether I want to spend money on it. That'll ultimately come down to a perception of value (does the update provide additional functionality that I will really use?) vs. risk (am I likely to be disappointed with the implementation of these new features, and will the function of my 11R be potentially compromised in any way?). (Those of you who, like me, allowed Apple to install iOS 4.0 on your iPhone 3G will appreciate the latter point.)

Anyhow, I just wanted to offer some thoughts about how it might be OK to buy a product without expectation of future improvements at no cost…
 
Hi,

Point 1: Fine. I played it for several hours and felt the thing really just didn't do it for me. One might appreciate its recording capabilities, but many already have a killer setup in that regard.

Point 2: It isn't that we EXPECT updates: it is simply that we are delighted by them. Through them, we've come to recognize that a huge added value of owning an Axe-Fx is that we are entreated to sheer unbridled joy several times a year. What we thought sounded and worked GREAT is suddenly made ~unexpectedly~ BETTER. Our sonic palettes grow. The GAS in all of us is relieved by a great influx of novelty, excitement, and kickass musical results. And honestly, for many of us, a huge part of the thrill is simply BEING HEARD (See also "the social media revolution" for more on why being heard matters). We post. We PM, do polls, and suddenly our wishlist requests are granted (with astounding speed and generous add-ins). Naturally, when our cars and computers and 11Rs remain relatively stagnant in comparison, they take on a grayish lackluster hue; our titillation baselines have risen. There is also the fact that the Axe-Fx when I bought it (November 2008) outperformed the 11R when I tried it in the store (Jan 2010) in every regard. My point, again, is that it really is not about updates, and we don't expect/demand them. I can honestly say, had there been a feature freeze in November 2008, I'd still be 110% satisfied with my Axe-Fx, moreso than with any guitar gear I've acquired before, during, or after getting it. That retro-freeze is hard to wish for, because it feels so good to have had my own personal features added (18db filter slope in the delay, independent pan on the enhancer output channels, etc. etc. etc.) but I honestly believe it is true. Man, I tell you: we aren't greedy or needy...and an absence of upgrades would not violate some unwritten treaty... the Axe-Fx was/is simply too meaty!

Point 3: That's cool. Most people don't talk about how Avid did more than fix bugs with 1.03. I can't imagine the core capabilities shifted enough to warrant me taking a second look though (or the world would have responded differently.) I am not dissing your gear-- just saying again in another way... it ain't about the updates.

PS: Do you have an Axe-Fx?

PPS: Right on about the iPhone OS. How the heck do you DOWNGRADE?
 
TieDyedDevil said:
If Avid releases a for-pay firmware update I'll certainly give it a look and decide whether I want to spend money on it. That'll ultimately come down to a perception of value (does the update provide additional functionality that I will really use?) vs. risk (am I likely to be disappointed with the implementation of these new features, and will the function of my 11R be potentially compromised in any way?).
My worry with pay updates (for any device) would be that if they came out with a "pay update", and the update didn't, as you said, have stuff I would use, so I decided not to get it. Then, in 6 months, they came out with another "pay update" that had a bunch of stuff I wanted, but I had to pay full price for the FIRST update to get the new update. So then, to get the features I DO want, I'd have pay twice.

I'm not saying it WILL work that way, but then again, I really don't see another way for it to work.

This is one reason I've always been against the idea of "pay updates," and not because I feel I deserve anything.
 
But people here tend to forget that the 11R only costs 800 euro's vs the axe-fx at least 1600 euro's. I'd be pissed too if i had to spend so much money on the axe-fx AND would have to pay for updates.
I wouldn't mind paying for updates (I have the 11R :) ) as long as its fair priced ... well... we'll just have to wait and see when the update finally comes out ... :)
 
Avid can do what they want, that's fine with me as long as everything is up on the table before the purchase. The price is irrelevant imho. I've got much less expensive plugins that I receive "free" updates for and the 11R isn't less expensive because they charge for updates... I think! :)

The "it's the law" comment bothers me because it suggests that Avid is being nice, law abiding, can't do anything about it etc and others are shady.
 
Exactly. Shady business practices, blame shifting and outright lies are more than enough reason for someone not to get my money (if I can avoid it).
 
Hi, Mat.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

Matman said:
… It isn't that we EXPECT updates: it is simply that we are delighted by them. Through them, we've come to recognize that a huge added value of owning an Axe-Fx is that we are entreated to sheer unbridled joy several times a year. What we thought sounded and worked GREAT is suddenly made ~unexpectedly~ BETTER. Our sonic palettes grow. The GAS in all of us is relieved by a great influx of novelty, excitement, and kickass musical results.

I appreciate that. It's a nice perq. If I was an Axe-FX owner (to answer your PS, no I'm not; I've spent quality time with several owned by friends, so I'm not completely in the dark) I think I might enjoy those updates, too. OTOH, it's equally likely that I might be annoyed at some of the incompatibilities between firmware updates and existing patches. I suppose as long as I knew of any required adjustments before applying an update (and having seen that Cliff is an excellent communicator, I assume this information is provided) then I could defer an update until such time as I was ready to rework my patches.

And honestly, for many of us, a huge part of the thrill is simply BEING HEARD (See also "the social media revolution" for more on why being heard matters). We post. We PM, do polls, and suddenly our wishlist requests are granted (with astounding speed and generous add-ins). Naturally, when our cars and computers and 11Rs remain relatively stagnant in comparison, they take on a grayish lackluster hue; our titillation baselines have risen.

Understood. But there's a dark side to social media: the "tyranny of the outspoken". I think it's good that Cliff is responding to Axe-FX wish-list requests. In general, it's a win-win situation. But I have to wonder whether, over an extended period of time, a product that's continually evolving might "leave behind" some less-vocal portion of its user base. There's no objective measurement of "better" when it comes to competently-constructed musical instruments. Quality is a subjective measure that varies from observer to observer.

Yes, a community may very well form around a set of particular beliefs and - through the power of numbers and of sharing common interests and desires - have those beliefs reified through Cliffs implementation work. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's the same way that politics applies to all aspects of our lives.

Just, please don't assert that change - because it originates in the power of social media - is always for the best.

To be clear, I am *not* asserting that all of the updates to the Axe-FX wouldn't delight *every single* owner with *every single* improvement that has been delivered over the years. All I'm saying is that the process you've described is not *necessarily* guaranteed to thrill every Axe-FX customer over the long run.

There is also the fact that the Axe-Fx when I bought it (November 2008) outperformed the 11R when I tried it in the store (Jan 2010) in every regard.

This gets back to subjective vs. objective realities. I interpret your assertion not as an absolute, but rather as a preference based upon some specific cluster of attributes that maximizes the Axe-FX's value to *you*. An *almost certainly different* cluster of attributes maximizes the 11R's benefit to *me*.

My point, again, is that it really is not about updates, and we don't expect/demand them.

I can understand that. However, my first post was a response to assertions that 11R was somehow inferior because buyers could not count on receiving free upgrades to the firmware. To which I responded that if a buyer enters into such a purchase with full knowledge that the product will be "as-is" forever after, it's still possible to make an informed decision to proceed with that purchase based upon the state of the product *at that time*.

I can honestly say, had there been a feature freeze in November 2008, I'd still be 110% satisfied with my Axe-Fx, moreso than with any guitar gear I've acquired before, during, or after getting it. That retro-freeze is hard to wish for, because it feels so good to have had my own personal features added (18db filter slope in the delay, independent pan on the enhancer output channels, etc. etc. etc.) but I honestly believe it is true. Man, I tell you: we aren't greedy or needy...and an absence of upgrades would not violate some unwritten treaty... the Axe-Fx was/is simply too meaty!

I'll take you at your word. Still, my cynical side has to wonder how many Axe-FX owners would rise up with pitchforks and torches were Cliff to say "no more unpaid updates".

Yes, I fully appreciate that such a possibility is unlikely to *ever* cross Cliff's mind. But what about the day when (let's make that "if", because I have no idea how Cliff plans to grow his business) Cliff decides to cash out and the buyer implements different upgrade policies?

Point 3: That's cool. Most people don't talk about how Avid did more than fix bugs with 1.03. I can't imagine the core capabilities shifted enough to warrant me taking a second look though (or the world would have responded differently.) I am not dissing your gear-- just saying again in another way... it ain't about the updates.

Nor am I dissing the Axe-FX. I've said this before (and elsewhere): I really like the Axe-FX for what it is. It's just not something that meets *my* needs and expectations. As I noted above, I evaluate gear using a different cluster of attributes than (apparently) used by most Axe-FX owners.

In the end, these are all just tools that enable *us* to make music. The tools do nothing on their own. They require human and artistic input.

I firmly *do not believe* in the concept of "best" when it comes to MI gear. I've witnessed far too many accomplished musicians transcend the supposed limitations of their "inferior" gear to create outstanding music. I *do* acknowledge that there may be gear which is not suitable for its intended purpose, but that in and of itself does not make the device incapable of being employed in *some* musical context. (A cheap guitar with poorly-placed frets and a warped neck may by useless to a shredder, for example, but still may be entirely usable as a slide guitar.)


Again, thanks for the conversation.
 
TieDyedDevil said:
OTOH, it's equally likely that I might be annoyed at some of the incompatibilities between firmware updates and existing patches.

The nice thing about the firmware updates and what people sometimes forget is you do not have to apply them. If you have achieved what you want at a certain firmware revision you can stay there. Some people feel compelled to upgrade.

You make a valid point and one can find posts on this board that back it up but again when you update can be managed and disruptions can be minimized.
 
The same can be said about paid updates. You can like the feature list as much as you want, but until you try it you won't know for sure.
The way I see it there's only one difference between paid updates and free ones... $!
 
JGR said:
No, no, we don't want to give them beer - that will slow down their productivity.

right.
I vote for a few cases of Yellow Tail and/or Laphroiag or Lagavulin.

yellowtail-shiraz.jpg
laphroaig-10-year.jpg
Lagavulin_Lagavulin_16_Year_Old_16_.jpg


mmhhh...
 
Quite simply Avid are saving up all their up-grade charges to sell a unit that delivers what it
promises in the hype,not the second-best sounding 11 rack. The future is NOT orange. :D
 
DonPetersen said:
JGR said:
No, no, we don't want to give them beer - that will slow down their productivity.

right.
I vote for a few cases of Yellow Tail and/or Laphroiag or Lagavulin.

yellowtail-shiraz.jpg
laphroaig-10-year.jpg
Lagavulin_Lagavulin_16_Year_Old_16_.jpg


mmhhh...

How can you simultaneously recommend the worst wine in the civilized world with two of the finest scotches? :|
 
Soopahmahn said:
DonPetersen said:
JGR said:
No, no, we don't want to give them beer - that will slow down their productivity.

right.
I vote for a few cases of Yellow Tail and/or Laphroiag or Lagavulin.

yellowtail-shiraz.jpg
laphroaig-10-year.jpg
Lagavulin_Lagavulin_16_Year_Old_16_.jpg


mmhhh...

How can you simultaneously recommend the worst wine in the civilized world with two of the finest scotches? :|

'cause I like all three.
 
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