I am so tired to the Tube Vs Axe FxII debate.

I got caught up in a similar "Axe v valve" debate not so long ago
and after some wise words from folk in here I've completely changed my approach / attitude
basically don't waste the time, effort and energy

just set up, turn up, sound great, play great..

what you do will say all that needs to be said..
 
Kruegmeister said:
New Firmware 6 added closer matching of the Knobs: At 5 on Axe Equal to the Knobs on the Real Amp at 5. It also added Tone Matching and More Amps.
Firmware 7 will add even more Amps VH4, Div/13, etc... and Improved Reverbs etc...
Making an Amp sound Awesome has been in there for Quite Some Time, However the New Firmwares have made it easier to Get there.
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Valid point, but didnt we get improved power amp modelling at v6? (or was it v5)?

I didnt intend to get caught up in any kind of debate here... i havent posted in threads like this in ages. I simply wanted to voice my experiences and let people take away from that what they wanted.

Let me just get this straight... does v7 contain improved dynamics? (preamp or otherwise) or did i grossly misread some of the other threads?
 
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I'm shocked that anyone is surprised by the tube fanaticism. Guitar players aren't terribly inclined to embrace new technologies. Today's most popular guitar designs were created when Eisenhower was POTUS.
 
Our physical reaction with the two different devices heavily effect the perception. I honestly feel you will never convince a tube purist unless you handicapped the axe to look and function only as a amp in the exact presentation.

It's a paradox. You have to actually dumb down the axe and make It function only like a archaic device to please people's filtered bias. My view is it is BETTER then the real thing. Real tube amps are only to please the actual guitarist. Even if you can try to argue punch and feel is still better in a real amp ( which I guess I still feel since I have come to the realization that the axe bypasses that for the recorded tone)... The reality is that you will sound better to everyone else with the axe vs the real thing.

I think n the end, if you are professional and have good knowledge about real guitar recorded tones, you will quickly realize how much further past the axe is to a real amp and comparing it to it isn't important any more since you are comparing it to something of less quality.
 
Gamedojo said:
Our physical reaction with the two different devices heavily effect the perception. I honestly feel you will never convince a tube purist unless you handicapped the axe to look and function only as a amp in the exact presentation.

It's a paradox. You have to actually dumb down the axe and make It function only like a archaic device to please people's filtered bias. My view is it is BETTER then the real thing. Real tube amps are only to please the actual guitarist. Even if you can try to argue punch and feel is still better in a real amp ( which I guess I still feel since I have come to the realization that the axe bypasses that for the recorded tone)... The reality is that you will sound better to everyone else with the axe vs the real thing.

I think n the end, if you are professional and have good knowledge about real guitar recorded tones, you will quickly realize how much further past the axe is to a real amp and comparing it to it isn't important any more since you are comparing it to something of less quality.
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I absolutely agree.
 
symphx said:
Let em break their backs lugging around the stuff, let em constantly buy and audition hundreds of dollars of tubes, let em lug around thousands of patch cables for effects, THEIR LOSS.
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this is the PRIMARY reason I went Fractal!!! I don't regret it one bit!
 
Luckily for all, it only requires one realization to be over this:
It in no way affects my life what anyone says about this on the internet. Being tired of the debate is one step, then all you need to do is stop participating in it, stop following it and let it go.

There are a handful of things worth arguing with strangers - or getting worked up at all - over, and guitar gear ain't one.
 
Ask if their Fender Twin can sound like a Marshall, or if their Marshall can sound like a Vox, or if their Vox can sound like a Mesa. These tube amps are severely limited by today's expectations :lol
 
The most important to me is the feeling of being connected with my guitar,it's getting better all the time,and 7 will probably nail it ,the feel of my guitar into my old zodiac twin is just unique,low or high output pickups.still I love my axe 2 and feel it will be the future winner,no doubts.
 
I wonder if a person who is actually blind, and musically astute would be a great candidate to attempt to hear the nuances between our digital box and a tube powered target amp. (Target = what we strive to recreate digitally)
I understand that the hearing of certain blind persons, is highly developed.
This would be a curious test.
I think, aside from that utterance, that FAS might be ready to perform a serious blind testing of these products. Perhaps even inviting industry leaders like John Suhr, Bruce Egnator, Reinhold Bogner, Fred from /13 and of course, good ole Tube Snob Bob. Could you imagine them not being able to identify their own Amp?
The FAS Challenge.
 
"Dynamic maximium"...

Since with the terrible search engine here, I can't even find back one of the two or three instances where I've stated it before, I'll explain in short for the last time what I experienced at a vintage amp collector's place, one of my only true experiences playing classic vintage and tube amps, beside my former Boogie Formula//20/20 that I haven't played much.

2 things struck me in most of the amps:

- On a lot of amps, when you attacked the string harder, the sound seemed to unmistakingly "narrow" all on its own and would sound more like when you would use a drive pedal in a certain way (not that I have experience with those either, but I have a small clue). I'm not saying not any amp has it in the Axe, but I have not heard it quite as obviously yet. It may not even be an aspect you'd wish for, and you could also simulate it probably, so this is the least of my worries.

- The more important aspect that stood out was that the amps didn't seem to have a dynamic maximum like the Axe.
IOW: if I play the Axe, my basic picking strength would be like 65% and I can vary from around 0 to 100% and then it will go no further. On the amps it felt like there was no maximum and I could vary pick attack from 0 to way >100%. This gave an awesome feeling of connectedness and great freedom to dynamically express yourself, experience more subtle stuff when you dig in, *really* dig in and *really really* dig in. Maybe if you had the picking strength you could destroy it :p while the Axe has a safeguard built-in.

I've seen others mention this and when Cliff said Our upcoming firmware addresses the "dynamic maximum" stuff ( The Gear Page - View Single Post - AXEFXII and KEMPER - One player's honest head to head ), I am hoping it goes towards what I experienced, as well as address the pick attack shortcomings for some others.

If even a tube noob like me can hear it in one visit, I am flabbergasted how all you guys don't even know about that, question it, etc.
And then when an established honest and humble tube sound authority like kerrlehr doesn't get it, I must truly start to question myself... :D

When I first got the II, I liked the sound for sure, but I was very disappointed that it still felt as "lifeless" as the Ultra. Luckily we've come quite a way in the last firmwares, and I could easily live with them. But sadly, from experience, I know there is still more and I have to wonder about the people in these rant threads. Esp. since I'm not a tube purist *at all*. In that case, I would probably prefer cabs as well, and that's not the case (at least not my cabs; might prefer better cabs in different ways though). How Cliff managed to bring some of the punch into FRFR has been a BIG deal to me :)

I would have preferred to read more aspects where tubes are still supposed to be better, what can still be done, what can never be done. Instead, it seems a tube noob like me has to educate a whole board that doesn't have a clue? Weird...
I too prefer the Axe as a total package, but the experience of playing those amps was certainly not worse than the current Axe sims. BTW, I was also surprised how very quiet they were, even playing quite loud.

And like I said, maybe the hi-gainers have it far less and therefore many don't have a clue. What I played were all old classic vintage amps (mostly Fenders, AC30 w original tubes and bias tremolo :), Matchless, others I can't remember the name of, ...)

"I am so tiered to the Tube Vs Axe FxII debate" from people that have no clue...
It's actually the other way round now: ppl that *do* have a clue about tube amps are now afraid to speak up..., while it's actually their info that can help us get there (and has).
 
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GM Arts said:
Ask if their Fender Twin can sound like a Marshall, or if their Marshall can sound like a Vox, or if their Vox can sound like a Mesa. These tube amps are severely limited by today's expectations :lol
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and with my lil' black box I get to walk on stage with a VH4, a 5150 mk3 and a vintage Hiwatt
 
vAmp said:
"Dynamic maximium"...

Since with the terrible search engine here, I can't even find back one of the two or three instances where I've stated it before, I'll explain in short for the last time what I experienced at a vintage amp collector's place, one of my only true experiences playing classic vintage and tube amps, beside my former Boogie Formula//20/20 that I haven't played much.

2 things struck me in most of the amps:

- On a lot of amps, when you attacked the string harder, the sound seemed to unmistakingly "narrow" all on its own and would sound more like when you would use a drive pedal in a certain way (not that I have experience with those either, but I have a small clue). I'm not saying not any amp has it in the Axe, but I have not heard it yet. It may not even be an aspect you'd wish for, and you could also simulate it probably, so this is the least of my worries.

- The more important aspect that stood out was that the amps didn't seem to have a dynamic maximum.
IOW: if I play the Axe, my basic picking strength would be like 65% and I can vary from around 0 to 100% and then it will go no further.
On the amps it felt like there was no maximum and I could vary pick attack from 0 to >100% This gave an awesome feeling of connectedness and great freedom to dynamically express yourself, experience more subtle stuff when you dig in and *really* dig in.

I've seen others mention this and when Cliff said Our upcoming firmware addresses the "dynamic maximum" stuff ( The Gear Page - View Single Post - AXEFXII and KEMPER - One player's honest head to head ), I am hoping it goes towards what I experienced, as well as address the pick attack shortcomings for some others.

If even a tube noob like me can hear it in one visit, I am flabbergasted how all you guys don't even know about that, question it, etc.
And then when an established honest and humble tube sound authority like kerrlehr doesn't get it, I must truly start to question myself... :D

When I first got the II, I liked the sound for sure, but I was very disappointed that it still felt as "lifeless" as the Ultra. Luckily we've come quite a way in the last firmwares, and I could easily live with them. But sadly, from experience, I know there is still more and I have to wonder about the people in these rant threads. Esp. since I'm not a tube purist *at all*. In that case, I would probably prefer cabs as well, and that's not the case (at least not my cabs; might prefer better cabs in different ways though). How Cliff managed to bring some of the punch into FRFR has been a BIG deal to me :)

Again, I would have loved to read more aspects where tubes are still supposed to be better, what can still be done, what can never be done. Instead, it seems a tube noob like me has to educate a whole board here? Weird...
I too prefer the Axe as a total package, but the experience of playing those amps was certainly not worse than the current Axe sims. BTW, I was also surprised how very quiet they were, even playing quite loud.

And like I said, maybe the hi-gainers have it far less and therefore many don't have a clue. What I played were all old classic vintage amps (mostly Fenders, AC30 w original tubes and bias tremolo :), Matchless, others I can't remember the name of, ...)
Click to expand...

A blind test is your best friend. The video that has been posted here on sound explains everything well.
There is no harm in loving tubes cause heck if it weren't for tubes the Axe Fx II wouldn't have existed. But with that said,this is all coming down to personal tastes and what your ear hears at times. Our ear can perceive different things at different timings even with the same volume settings and what not. Playing the vintage amps on the II gave a lot of great feel to me personally. Did you try the global EQ settings and advance parameters and things to obtain that feel. Remember the Axe FxII needs to be set up well and an amp is directly plug and play. So a lot of aspects count in this matter.

Cheers.
 
^^^
OK thanks for clarifying.
this is by no means a rant, I am just interested in this conversation for the purposes of education, so bear with me please...
Would it not be fair to say that you did not compare apples with apples ?
i.e the sound and air movement you felt playing throught the tube amp ( which is not FRFR obviously, but emphasized the mids etc) should have been compared to having the Axe Fx in the SAME room, played through a good quality FRFR speaker, then tweak the EQ to boost the mids to try and emulate the " dynamic maximum" of your vintage amp . Then you might be able to achieve the same air movement with your dynamic picking and get a similar feel.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but honestly, how many people have done the experiment properly ???

As I said, I'm just trying to educate myself here, so don't take this the wrong way...
 
immortal_soloist said:
A blind test is your best friend. The video that has been posted here on sound explains everything well.
There is no harm in loving tubes cause heck if it weren't for tubes the Axe Fx II wouldn't have existed. But with that said,this is all coming down to personal tastes and what your ear hears at times. Our ear can perceive different things at different timings even with the same volume settings and what not. Playing the vintage amps on the II gave a lot of great feel to me personally. Did you try the global EQ settings and advance parameters and things to obtain that feel. Remember the Axe FxII needs to be set up well and an amp is directly plug and play. So a lot of aspects count in this matter.

Cheers.
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Ha, ha, it seems we both posted at the same time, and said the same thing in different words !!
 
In the past i had the ultra and actvive atomics FRFR , but never got the right feel , then later the Axe 2 and FRFR , still not the regular cab feel,now i run into an matrix amp and a real cab,a port city 2x12 ,but is the FRFR thing just as good as a cab now after all this new development??? and 7 is coming
 
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