Volume, Loudness and Adjusting on the Fly

W

WITELITE

Experienced
Spent a few hours rearranging and creating presets prior to a band practice yesterday. When playing without the band they all had (at least to me) the same relative volume level and all sounded fantastic.

However, in the live situation, many of the tones (particularly the gain tones) seemed to get lost in the mix. In the "tube amp" days I used to reach back and turn the master up a bit though I currently have the Axe in a place that would make this less convenient. Leads me to couple of questions for those that have "been there"

- Has this happened to you guys? If so, what works best to either adjust on the fly or set the relative volume levels when saving the patches?
- Can you assign a quick control knob to the master volume of the preset so that it would be similar to how to adjust in the tube amp days?
- I read something about a setting which would adjust a preset +/- 1 db and save the patch permanently. Anybody used this?

Any and all best practices welcome. I do have an MFC-101 as well if there are any good suggestions for that as well

MM
 
teddis said:
Add IA's for Volume increase on the MFC, works great.
Click to expand...

Do you use the 1 db increments (which I thought were permanent to the patch) or some other way? Main Output level or Master on Amp? Sorry to be a pain on specifics but just trying to see what works best. Thanks!
 
How about an expression pedal controlling the main OUT1 volume?

Set its range to 100-127 maybe?
 
I believe it controls the MASTER volume level for that patch. It is sensitive and ramps up/down quickly. Not sure if it can be set for a specific db incr/dec.
 
WITELITE said:
Spent a few hours rearranging and creating presets prior to a band practice yesterday. When playing without the band they all had (at least to me) the same relative volume level and all sounded fantastic.

However, in the live situation, many of the tones (particularly the gain tones) seemed to get lost in the mix. In the "tube amp" days I used to reach back and turn the master up a bit though I currently have the Axe in a place that would make this less convenient. Leads me to couple of questions for those that have "been there"

- Has this happened to you guys? If so, what works best to either adjust on the fly or set the relative volume levels when saving the patches?
- Can you assign a quick control knob to the master volume of the preset so that it would be similar to how to adjust in the tube amp days?
- I read something about a setting which would adjust a preset +/- 1 db and save the patch permanently. Anybody used this?

Any and all best practices welcome. I do have an MFC-101 as well if there are any good suggestions for that as well

MM
Click to expand...

Coming from another MM...this is my biggest "issue" in general with modelers. The volume/cut dance and being able to nail it. I think that's one of the reasons folks still prefer tube amps, frankly. Because they can't be bothered with having to balance 6-7 virtual amps on stage and get it all right. I think the best technique I've found to do it is to play your patches with some songs at home, at higher volume. That at least helps you so see how they're fitting in the mix at some level. The problem I find is that at practice, and certainly at a gig, there is never the time to play with and tweak those on the fly. Time is always tight or we're performing so I can't take 20 minutes or so to go back and forth between patches. Certainly doing less patches will help.

I think that IA technique is probably the best method to adjust on the fly during a gig. My problem is I don't have the real estate with my LF JR to dedicate 2 IAs to this purpose...at least as currently configured. I may try that technique where in one mode it goes 8 IAs and in the other mode it's all presets but I worry about the tap dance and timing.
 
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mtmartin71 said:
Coming from another MM...this is my biggest "issue" in general with modelers. The volume/cut dance and being able to nail it. I think that's one of the reasons folks still prefer tube amps, frankly. Because they can't be bothered with having to balance 6-7 virtual amps on stage and get it all right. I think the best technique I've found to do it is to play your patches with some songs at home, at higher volume. That at least helps you so see how they're fitting in the mix at some level. The problem I find is that at practice, and certainly at a gig, there is never the time to play with and tweak those on the fly. Time is always tight or we're performing so I can't take 20 minutes or so to go back and forth between patches. Certainly doing less patches will help.

I think that IA technique is probably the best method to adjust on the fly during a gig. My problem is I don't have the real estate with my LF JR to dedicate 2 IAs to this purpose...at least as currently configured. I may try that technique where in one mode it goes 8 IAs and in the other mode it's all presets but I worry about the tap dance and timing.
Click to expand...

Good to hear its not just me! It's amazing how good some can sound by themselves and get lost in the mix. I like the idea of a +/- 1db increment via footswitch. I know the volume pedal one makes sense too but I've never used one and have only 1 expression pedal for a wah.
 
IMHO it's not always just a volume issue. Your sound can get lost in the mix because of the overlap with other instruments, and you need to design your presets accordingly. When playing alone I prefer a darker tone, but to cut through in a mix I emphasize the mids and upper mids more. I'm sure there are people here than can explain this better than I can.
 
LMO said:
IMHO it's not always just a volume issue. Your sound can get lost in the mix because of the overlap with other instruments, and you need to design your presets accordingly. When playing alone I prefer a darker tone, but to cut through in a mix I emphasize the mids and upper mids more. I'm sure there are people here than can explain this better than I can.
Click to expand...

Most interested in others experiences here. As I look at this, I do kind of like the option of vol increase, decrease (page 144 of the manual) though interesting to me that it permanently saves as part of the patch. Does that have any implications if adjusting in a live setting? For you fractal guys, curious as to why set up that way (not that I think there's anything wrong with it?)
 
the volume increase/decrease thing on two IA switches was the most useful find for me. it meant i could adjust my patches on the fly and have the new volume stored automatically. after a couple of gigs, all my patches were at perfect relative volumes and i've never needed to adjust them again

sim
 
IMO this IS the main problem with any modeler. I agree. I have suggested that in it's recall state, the 4 ABCD knobs should be assigned to the most common controls on an amp, including MASTER.
Right now, I am using the IA method of tweaking volume between patches. It's better than nothing but it's not better than being able to reach for the volume knob.
I DO have a method though that I use now in live gigs which allows me not to creep up in volume with my patches until they can't be used:
1. I only turn my master volume up.
2. I only use the IA switch to turn my patches down. That prevents the dreaded clipping issues.

LMO: You are infinitely correct. EQ is more important than volume when mixing. There is a phenomena called "wipe" which occurs when 2 instruments share either timbre or pitch and spacial positioning. Changing cab or mic type can sometimes handle the issue as these are very defining factors in the settings, but that's impossible to do on the fly.
It's easy to resolve in post, but not live. So knowing which instruments you are going to play with and getting agreement with the keyboard player and bass player ahead of time on pitch/sound timbre matters during rehearsal is essential.

Nevertheless, even when the EQ is right and there's no wipe, volume still has to be right and patch to patch constancy is, IMO, the greatest issue. I plead again for the assignment of ABCD knobs in recall state to basic amp controls. Maybe even programable in global settings.
 
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Patzag said:
IMO this IS the main problem with any modeler. I agree. I have suggested that in it's recall state, the 4 ABCD knobs should be assigned to the most common controls on an amp, including MASTER.
Right now, I am using the IA method of tweaking volume between patches. It's better than nothing but it's not better than being able to reach for the volume knob.
I DO have a method though that I use now in live gigs which allows me not to creep up in volume with my patches until they can't be used:
1. I only turn my master volume up.
2. I only use the IA switch to turn my patches down. That prevents the dreaded clipping issues.

LMO: You are infinitely correct. EQ is more important than volume when mixing. There is a phenomena called "wipe" which occurs when 2 instruments share either timbre or pitch and spacial positioning. Changing cab or mic type can sometimes handle the issue as these are very defining factors in the settings, but that's impossible to do on the fly.
It's easy to resolve in post, but not live. So knowing which instruments you are going to play with and getting agreement with the keyboard player and bass player ahead of time on pitch/sound timbre matters during rehearsal is essential.

Nevertheless, event when the EQ is right and there's no wipe, volume still has to be right and patch to patch constancy is, IMO, the greatest issue. I plead again for the assignment of ABCD knobs in recall state to basic amp controls. Maybe even programable in global settings.
Click to expand...

By "MasterVolume Up" how do you do that if you are playing and no easy knob access. Do you mean the output on the front of the unit?. Get the second part but not sure I understand the first part and agree on the use of ABCD. Is there a default setting for those or are they only active in an edit mode?
 
Hi Wirelite.
By Master Volume, I mean the actual Output 1 on the face of the Axe. If a patch is too low, I turn up the whole thing and if a patch is too loud, I turn the patch down using the IA. Eventually, things level out. It also saves me having two IAs dedicated to volume on my board.
ABCD are not in use in Recall mode. You have to go into amp edit right now to access the master volume. That's why I think there should be a global assignment of ABCD which works in Recall mode.
Does that clarify it?
 
barhrecords said:
I'm thinking about trying one (or more) of the mission engineering XPB rotary switches for functions like this:

mission Switches and Cables

That would seem ideal for knob twiddling during soundcheck.

Richard
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That could work I guess. Assign it to an External, which could be tied to Amp Level.
The same as using ABCD but without a menu.
 
This is an issue with any and every set-up, not just a modeler. Any tone that is great in your room by your self, might not work right in the band setting. The fixes might be slightly simpler on a single tube amp with just a couple of knobs, but the issue is the exact same no matter what you are using.
Once you figure out how to adjust it in the easiest way for you, you make the adjustments and then it's good to go. For some folks it is just more volume. Others might want to cut/add some EQ. This is the importance of full volume practices whenever you get new gear. Even if the rest of the band doesn't like/need to practice. a simple "Hey guys, i 'd like to dial in my sound to make sure we sound good with my new gear, lets have a full practice so i can tweak it well" will go a long way to being happy with you sounds.

The single best way to level patches IMHO is to set 2 IA's for up/down volume and play a whole gig that way. Adjusting as needed. Then do it again the next gig, and the next. yes you may have to remove a couple of other IA's for a few shows, but small price to pay to get awesome, leveled patches.

edit: And if taking a couple shows with a slightly stripped down IA board is that upsetting, then maybe the flexibility of a modeler isn't the best device for you? Obviously more stuff to get aligned and set-up up-front, but huge dividends once it is all setup and you can just wing it at shows, without concern over your sound. and the access to so many different sounds at just the touch of a button.
 
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yek said:
That could work I guess. Assign it to an External, which could be tied to Amp Level.
The same as using ABCD but without a menu.
Click to expand...

I don't think that will work too well: The knob will take action wherever it is set, resulting in wild variations in volume. It's not a rotary encoder, it's a pot with fixed travel.
If preset A's master volume is 5, and your knob is currently parked at "8", when you reach for your knob to adjust the level, you're going to experience a radical shift in volume as the master instantly switches from 5 to 8.
No, I think the solution is still making ABCD soft assignable in Recall mode. As rotary encoders, they will be at the correct values at the instant of recall of the preset.
 
Thanks all. Still feeling like 1 IA switch for +1 and -1 is the way to go. Does putting the output 1 level at say 12 o'clock impact the sound at all. Maybe a combination of all 3 will work best though I do like the idea of dialing in (and saving) the patches with the IA's
 
Depending on how you have your patches setup and what your IA switches are changing, you can mess up the gain staging and clip. I think that is the issue with +1.

Richard
 
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