[Solved] Marshall amps sounds too thin

[Budda]

Ive posted some free blackback ir’s fwiw

Edit: @VESmedic its the most dynamic with mv at 5. Which is part of why I wouldnt be suggesting to run the master low.

 

[mr_fender]

Isn't that what bass players are for...

 

[Budda]

Isn't that what bass players are for...

If you have one, yes. Alone at home is generally a different game.

I bought an 810 so that any underpowering is 100% on the bassist and their amp haha.

 

[David McCarroll]

I tried that once with my Mark V (90W). I never hit the clipping point, but I think I sterilized myself.

You probably structurally damaged your house as well!

 

[hfam]

Definitely don’t turn up the master, for starters. That is the absolute last thing you wanna do when trying to get more low end out of an amp. Seriously, the absolute last thing. Keep the master no higher than 9 o’clock or so. I don’t care if it’s the JVM models, 800, whatever,‘doesn’t matter. The more you turn up the master, the more you clip the power section which cuts low end and high end. That’s why they sound super midrangey when the volume gets high. This applies to all high gain amps by the way. In fact I bias my real diezel Herbert alittle colder than stock for just this reason. Tighter and more lows and highs.

Im well aware of what that thread says. Use your ears. There is not one high gain model that has a bigger, tighter low end with the master volume up above its clipping point. Not one. This is extremely accurate in the axe fx compared to the real amps counterpart. There’s a reason why tube amps like 5150s and Diezel Herbert’s have huge power sections and are biased on the cold side: it’s so the power section stays together, doesn’t get mushy, and keeps the low end BIG. Clipping a poweramp esssentially turns an amp into the equivalent of moving your high pass filter higher, and moving your low pass filter lower and lower….your narrowing the bandwidth of the frequencies, which is why they often get super midrangey and shitty. Again, we are talking about “modern” ( jcm800 and forward) high gain amps.

“
This occurs because the virtual power amp is distorting, and quite heavily. Due to the impedance curve of the virtual speaker load this causes the bass and high treble frequencies to clip but not the midrange. The result is, naturally, compressed bass and high treble which can sound muddy and indistinct. Modern MV amps are not designed to overdrive the power amp considerably. They are designed to get most of their distortion from the preamp and then adjust the MV until the power amp just starts to clip which is the "sweet spot".

Some amps, like the Recto Modern, will distort the power amp at very low MV values, around 2.0. In real life these amps are painfully loud at these settings but in our virtual world we are unaware of this because the Level control allows us to adjust the volume to any arbitrary level.”


Cliff is literally saying exactly what I’m saying…you want more low end that’s tighter and bigger? Keep your master volume low on high gain amps, it’s really that simple. Again, I own or have owned just about every high gain amp on the planet and I monitor in a great room with a 12,000 dollar genelec system: you aren’t getting more and better low end by clipping that power section, you just aren’t. I’m not sure where that myth came from with high gain amps but it’s simply not true, in the least. I know MANY engineers and producers who, like me, bias their amps alittle on the colder side for this reason. I turn down the bias on a few of the amps in the axe fx as well, namely the 5150 because even Cliff said the one he modeled was biased hot I believe.

Those posts are pure gold, thanks. I thought for SURE the "MV no higher than 9 O'Clock" was a typo....so...set it to ~2 then? Really?! So I went to my go-to 2203 High, made the change (MV 6.5 to 2), adjusted the tonestack, turned off the bright switch, dropped the bias to 45% and I would have never believed the changes it made had I not gone ahead and just done it. It sounds absolutely glorious. I mean GLORIOUS. It cleaned up every damned thing I couldn't get done over months. Full. Beefy. Tight. Clear as a bell. Feel is amazing. Headroom?? That headroom level hasn't moved from "slammed" in a long time. It's bouncing around -7 dB. Brilliant, thanks again man!

No one else told you, so, I will
1) Go to York Audio's website and get the Marshall 25 cab IR pack.
Load up the IR that is an MD421V-1.
2) Go to the power amp Tab on the Editor and set power tube bias to at least 70%.
This works on every Marshall amp except JMP-1 pre.....that one you do the same, but you have to dig a bit deeper. The stock power amp on that model is weak sounding, so you have to do more tweaking to get it close to the real deal, like they were intended to be used. When Cliff modeled the JMP-1 he should have tried a DSL as the power amp.

The myth turning everything to 10 is just that.....a myth and sounds horribly muddy. Set tonestack controls to around noon and adjust for taste. Gain on a plexi style....use Treble CH and put gain around 4-6 and hit the front with a drive pedal like 90% of every recording you heard. Drive pedal should be set more as a clean boost (low gain/High Level) than a distortion pedal. Many guys will choose different drive pedals. I like the Klon the best. It doesn't cut the low end as much.

3) come back here and thank me

Seriously, I am a Marshall guy and I think the Fractal does a fantastic job on most of those models and I do the above for pretty much each model. I hate to say it, but I have never found an included IR or a dynacab version that gets the job done like that York Audio IR. <<This will give you the beef you are seeking.

Edit: I forgot one....make sure the SIC is set to the appropriate one. With the York Audio IR I use the Friedman GB SIC.

Always open to new IRs, we are alike in that I've struggled to find the factory IR/DC that just makes my day, so I'm always seeking that perfection I gel with. So, I went ahead and grabbed the YA Marshall 25 pack, and you are absolutely right, that IR is fantastic!! So, same setup as my post above, after the changes I swapped in a pair of those MD421V-1s panned -45/45 and holy shit brother it's like a battalion of Sherman tanks, sooooo beefy and ballsy and still crisp!! So, indeed, returning to say thanks! One note, I turned down the Grid Bias from my typical ~80% down to 45% based on the above @VESmedic recommends, and it's VERY nice, still warm but cleaner. Unexpected goodness!

I'm having to fucking rethink everything today, but it's all good! I really appreciate these discussions, and those who participate and share their knowledge with all. The value of the Fractal forums really is the sort of unspoken benefits to owning a Fractal device that often gets overlooked. We have the greatest most accurate modeller on the planet, AND we have a LOT of great knowledge shared on how to get the most out of it. Win Win!

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

 

[austinbuddy]

The Marshall models are perhaps the most accurate models on this planet. Marshalls are very bright. Those classic, warm sounds are because those G12M speakers are warm. Use the 1960TV with the condenser or ribbon mic.

this
plus turn on the amp boost in the amp
block neutral with + 8db with the gain between 4 and 6 depending on the Marshall. You CAN dime the Plexis

I am more wondering what your playback system is here… that may be why you aren’t getting the lows you want…. many FRFRs cut off at 70Hz too… and the bass gets louder the louder the overall volume… low-end bass waves need about 15 feet to fully form…in a small room you won’t hear it

 

[Piing]

I've never had lack of bass using my favorite Marshall: the JS410.

Could the problem be your IR choice? Monitors? Room acoustics?

 

[jlynnb1]

Have you ever turned a high gain amps master volume up above it’s clipping point?

JCM's and Plexi's aren't high gain amps, and you can def turn their MV's tip higher than you would other amps. They almost always sound better if you do.

 

[ruso]

Marshalls are naturally bright – that’s a big part of what makes them cut through a mix so well.

If one feels too piercing on its own, just reach for one of the hundreds of other Marshall variations we have. Or swap the cab. Or add an EQ after the cab block. Or do all three. Between the huge selection of amps, cabs, mics, and post-EQ options, there’s simply no reason anything coming out of your monitors should ever sound harsh or unpleasant.

I’m lazy. So at home I just throw a PEQ in after the cab block, give it a bump around 90-100 Hz and set the high cut very low, like around 6,000 Hz.

 

[VESmedic]

Those posts are pure gold, thanks. I thought for SURE the "MV no higher than 9 O'Clock" was a typo....so...set it to ~2 then? Really?! So I went to my go-to 2203 High, made the change (MV 6.5 to 2), adjusted the tonestack, turned off the bright switch, dropped the bias to 45% and I would have never believed the changes it made had I not gone ahead and just done it. It sounds absolutely glorious. I mean GLORIOUS. It cleaned up every damned thing I couldn't get done over months. Full. Beefy. Tight. Clear as a bell. Feel is amazing. Headroom?? That headroom level hasn't moved from "slammed" in a long time. It's bouncing around -7 dB. Brilliant, thanks again man!



Always open to new IRs, we are alike in that I've struggled to find the factory IR/DC that just makes my day, so I'm always seeking that perfection I gel with. So, I went ahead and grabbed the YA Marshall 25 pack, and you are absolutely right, that IR is fantastic!! So, same setup as my post above, after the changes I swapped in a pair of those MD421V-1s panned -45/45 and holy shit brother it's like a battalion of Sherman tanks, sooooo beefy and ballsy and still crisp!! So, indeed, returning to say thanks! One note, I turned down the Grid Bias from my typical ~80% down to 45% based on the above @VESmedic recommends, and it's VERY nice, still warm but cleaner. Unexpected goodness!

I'm having to fucking rethink everything today, but it's all good! I really appreciate these discussions, and those who participate and share their knowledge with all. The value of the Fractal forums really is the sort of unspoken benefits to owning a Fractal device that often gets overlooked. We have the greatest most accurate modeller on the planet, AND we have a LOT of great knowledge shared on how to get the most out of it. Win Win!

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

I’m glad it worked for you man. These are just things I’ve learned over the years that are better at this than me. There is alot of BS info on the Internet, it’s hard to decipher what to believe or try, I know for sure. But keeping these amps from clipping and dropping the bias a bit is generally going to give a bigger, beefier, cleaner and tighter sound always. This is why I always laughed at people who use to “bias mod” their 5150s super hot…like, why? Why do you want ( at the time) the highest gain amp on the planet ever made mixing it’s preamp overdrive with the power amp overdriving/clipping as well? It’s a recipe for disaster. I will say turning up the master a bit for something like leads ( if you want that creamy type of thick sound) is usually ok I guess, but for any type of heavier rhythm playing, it’s gonna be a mess.

 

[VESmedic]

I've never had lack of bass using my favorite Marshall: the JS410.

Could the problem be your IR choice? Monitors? Room acoustics?

Well I’d agree for sure with that amp. but that is a completely different thing than even the jcm2000s, let alone an 800 or a plexi. And im with you, I absolutely love the JVM and have since it came out, fantastic amp.

 

[Budda]

My point has been that mv at 5 on a jcm800 wont sound thin. Im confident my not perfect comparison clip conveyed it

Will try the grid bias thing tomorrow!

 

[Randalljax]

My point has been that mv at 5 on a jcm800 wont sound thin. Im confident my not perfect comparison clip conveyed it

Will try the grid bias thing tomorrow!

An 800 is fine to turn up the master IMO , generally anything w 3 gain stages or less and EL34 British power section you can crank it a bit
Once you get into 4 gain stage preamps you probably do t want to do that
Although. There are exceptions to the rule the Soldano SLO for example get darker and thicker if you turn up the master at low master settings it’s very bright
I. The opposite side the Dual Recto I would never put the master beyond 2.5 or 3 as it falls apart

 

[Piing]

Philosophical question: Blackmore not only used single-coils, but also a Treble Booster with his Marshall Major. How did he achieve that thick tone?

 

[VESmedic]

Philosophical question: Blackmore not only used single-coils, but also a Treble Booster with his Marshall Major. How did he achieve that thick tone?

I mean there is so sooo much more to his tone than that. To any tone really. Nothing is ever at all that simple as you philosophizing. I get what you’re asking, but every guitar tone on record is so much more complicated than that. All of those old plexi style amps CAN sound dark. I mean hell, set up a plexi in the brightest way possible but put a 57 way far out on the cone: it’s gonna sound dark. There’s just so many variables here.

 

[GuitarMan2550]

Philosophical question: Blackmore not only used single-coils, but also a Treble Booster with his Marshall Major. How did he achieve that thick tone?

TBH, I really don't know if he does or not but a wild guess, he probably does the same thing I do when playing my strat through a Marshall......turn down that tone knob.
I have never been a huge fan of Blackmore but after I discovered the tone knob on the bridge pup, I totally get why he only uses the bridge and neck pup. I live on the bridge pup on my strat and I bury the middle pup down into the pickguard and never use those 2 and 4 positions.
Why Fender originally didn't have a tone knob on the bridge pup is bewildering.

 

[Forever Again]

As other have stated, this thread is gold. I’m looking soon to try out some of these adjustments.

@VESmedic you mentioned Budda needing to volume match his clips. Are you saying with the changes that you’ve described that one would need to increase the level output on the amp block to compensate? I haven’t before adjusted really any parameters outside of the basic tab. When I’ve had a lower master volume, its always felt like the meat was removed from the amp.

I’m just listening out of cheap studio monitors (Tannoy 501a) at a reasonable volume. Maybe that’s also why I don’t hear much difference between firmware releases.

 

[VESmedic]

As other have stated, this thread is gold. I’m looking soon to try out some of these adjustments.

@VESmedic you mentioned Budda needing to volume match his clips. Are you saying with the changes that you’ve described that one would need to increase the level output on the amp block to compensate? I haven’t before adjusted really any parameters outside of the basic tab. When I’ve had a lower master volume, its always felt like the meat was removed from the amp.

I’m just listening out of cheap studio monitors (Tannoy 501a) at a reasonable volume. Maybe that’s also why I don’t hear much difference between firmware releases.

In theory yes you would want to turn up the output when dropping the master volume to make the “lower master volume” clips, and then turn down the output block when making the “higher master volume”’clips. Unfortunately , this is much harder than it sounds, which is why you get a plugin like waves WLM to make sure they are all the same level.

Because here’s what happens: in the pro audio world, when you enter in saturation plugins like tape saturation, inflators etc, what happens is you get a perceived loudness jump due to the increase in harmonics, compression etc, even if you’ve set the first track at the same level prior to adding those effects and compared that level to the level with those effects on. This is exactly why you need to volume match when comparing anything really. So in theory what should happen is (again in general) you have one clip with no tape saturation on, and another with it off. They are both reading -11rms, but the one with tape saturation STILL sounds louder to you. Why is that? Because of those increased harmonics, compression etc. you PERCEIVE that the track with tape saturation is louder than the other track without tape saturation, even though they are at the exact same level, as measured with something like waves WLM. NOW when you listen to buddas clips 2 and 3, the differences you hear are because of the actual master volume knob placement, and not because of loudness differences. This is the proper way to compare. The WLM plugin allows you to make tracks at whatever level you want and keep them there, that’s why it’s great.


Why am I bringing up tape saturation and pro audio in this thread: because turning up the master volume on a tube amp, is essentially the same thing: as you turn up the master volume on any tube amp, the power amp compresses, you get more harmonic saturation/content etc. many people PERCEIVE this as better, simply because it’s louder: what happened with budda’s clips he posted is exactly this, except the track themselves (clips 2 and 3) ARE louder….just look at the waveform, see how much bigger the waveform is in clips 2 and 3? They ARE actually louder. If they were volume matched properly, they would all be the same “height” ( although clips 3 especially would look more squared off and brick walled because again, the higher you turn up the master volume the more compression you get, and that’s what it looks like in the pro world: a more brickwalled/flat waveform) and the same loudness. THEN when you listen, any perceived differences you hear At that point, you can directly attribute to the change in the master volume knob position changing, and nothing else. Does that make sense? this is why comparing clips doesn’t work unless they are volume matched, regardless of what you are trying to compare( different IR’s, different overdrives, different amps etc). The human mind will generally always pick the “louder” one as better, but the only way to truly see if one is “better “ than the other, is to volume match them ( whatever it is you’re comparing) and then decide…and guess what happens more times than not? The “louder” one isn’t better at all to you actually, for whatever reason that may be. This happens all the time in pro audio where people add tape saturation to their mixes. They compare one with a tape saturation plugin on, and then one off. And guess which one they think sounds better? Of course, the one with tape saturation. “ oh man! Its bigger! More punch! More low end!”…..but is it REALLY? Or are you being fooled? Volume match both of those mixes to the same level, and more time often than not, you won’t think that mix with Tape saturation is “better”. You’ll more than likely say, “wow, this actually sounds muddier, the bass isn’t as tight, it sounds bloated in the low midrange, and the transients are smeared and it’s actually lost punch”….which is in all actuality, exactly what tape saturation plugins do: they fool you.

 

[David McCarroll]

TBH, I really don't know if he does or not but a wild guess, he probably does the same thing I do when playing my strat through a Marshall......turn down that tone knob.
I have never been a huge fan of Blackmore but after I discovered the tone knob on the bridge pup, I totally get why he only uses the bridge and neck pup. I live on the bridge pup on my strat and I bury the middle pup down into the pickguard and never use those 2 and 4 positions.
Why Fender originally didn't have a tone knob on the bridge pup is bewildering.

They didn't because Tweed amps are very dark sounding beasts - there were NO pedals back in those halcyon days, so the idea was that bridge pickup was your "lead" pickup, so it had to cut through tonally rather by some kind of volume/gain boost. That Fender never bothered changing either that nor going to a five way switch despite gazillions of Strat players jamming the pickup selector in the in-between positions to get them there clucky sounds until the, what, late seventies, remains a mystery of universe bending proportions!

 

[TheRedDevil]

Buy a Ollo Audio headphone like S4X, S5X, etc and you will know, how it really sounds. Then you can check if your room+speakers do the same or if you need to buy other speakers or optimize EQs/room. If the headphone sound is not good, you need to optimize your preset.