[Solved] Marshall amps sounds too thin

[David McCarroll]

1. Turn off the bright cap.
2. Try the Plexi 100W, as it is one of the darker Plexi variants.
3. Don’t turn the mid or treble up too high. To get a more powerful, thicker sound, you need the preamp set on the darker side, and you can add treble back in at the power amp stage using Presence.
Check out this video of AC/DC’s tech giving a rundown, around the 20 minute mark:


4. IR is key. I like the ribbon mic pulled all the way back and off axis. Don’t be afraid to put it all the way to the edge.

Just as a matter of nitpicking jerkiness, Angus's tech says his main guitar is a 67/68....... no way is that a 67/68 SG, it's a Les Paul SG and probably dates back to around 61 - 63 unless it was quite literally custom made by Gibson to 61/63 specs for someone around the late sixties.

 

[roodboy]

Im addition to bright cap off
try a jumpered 4 hole and increase normal channel volume
also might wanna back off tone knob on guitar a touch
try the leon todd 1960tv mix ir also

 

[Budda]

Definitely don’t turn up the master, for starters. That is the absolute last thing you wanna do when trying to get more low end out of an amp. Seriously, the absolute last thing. Keep the master no higher than 9 o’clock or so. I don’t care if it’s the JVM models, 800, whatever,‘doesn’t matter. The more you turn up the master, the more you clip the power section which cuts low end and high end. That’s why they sound super midrangey when the volume gets high. This applies to all high gain amps by the way. In fact I bias my real diezel Herbert alittle colder than stock for just this reason. Tighter and more lows and highs.

Low master means no power amp thump…?

 

[Goonie]

Definitely don’t turn up the master, for starters. That is the absolute last thing you wanna do when trying to get more low end out of an amp. Seriously, the absolute last thing. Keep the master no higher than 9 o’clock or so. I don’t care if it’s the JVM models, 800, whatever,‘doesn’t matter. The more you turn up the master, the more you clip the power section which cuts low end and high end. That’s why they sound super midrangey when the volume gets high. This applies to all high gain amps by the way. In fact I bias my real diezel Herbert alittle colder than stock for just this reason. Tighter and more lows and highs.

Thread 'Setting the Master Volume' https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/setting-the-master-volume.119903/

 

[FractalAudio]

The Marshall models are perhaps the most accurate models on this planet. Marshalls are very bright. Those classic, warm sounds are because those G12M speakers are warm. Use the 1960TV with the condenser or ribbon mic.

 

[Budda]

Quick mv at 2.5/5/7.5 clip (all knobs at noon)

 

[VESmedic]

Low master means no power amp thump…?

Have you ever turned a high gain amps master volume up above it’s clipping point?

 

[Frodebro]

Have you ever turned a high gain amps master volume up above it’s clipping point?

I tried that once with my Mark V (90W). I never hit the clipping point, but I think I sterilized myself.

 

[VESmedic]

Thread 'Setting the Master Volume' https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/setting-the-master-volume.119903/

Im well aware of what that thread says. Use your ears. There is not one high gain model that has a bigger, tighter low end with the master volume up above its clipping point. Not one. This is extremely accurate in the axe fx compared to the real amps counterpart. There’s a reason why tube amps like 5150s and Diezel Herbert’s have huge power sections and are biased on the cold side: it’s so the power section stays together, doesn’t get mushy, and keeps the low end BIG. Clipping a poweramp esssentially turns an amp into the equivalent of moving your high pass filter higher, and moving your low pass filter lower and lower….your narrowing the bandwidth of the frequencies, which is why they often get super midrangey and shitty. Again, we are talking about “modern” ( jcm800 and forward) high gain amps.

 

[VESmedic]

“
This occurs because the virtual power amp is distorting, and quite heavily. Due to the impedance curve of the virtual speaker load this causes the bass and high treble frequencies to clip but not the midrange. The result is, naturally, compressed bass and high treble which can sound muddy and indistinct. Modern MV amps are not designed to overdrive the power amp considerably. They are designed to get most of their distortion from the preamp and then adjust the MV until the power amp just starts to clip which is the "sweet spot".

Some amps, like the Recto Modern, will distort the power amp at very low MV values, around 2.0. In real life these amps are painfully loud at these settings but in our virtual world we are unaware of this because the Level control allows us to adjust the volume to any arbitrary level.”


Cliff is literally saying exactly what I’m saying…you want more low end that’s tighter and bigger? Keep your master volume low on high gain amps, it’s really that simple. Again, I own or have owned just about every high gain amp on the planet and I monitor in a great room with a 12,000 dollar genelec system: you aren’t getting more and better low end by clipping that power section, you just aren’t. I’m not sure where that myth came from with high gain amps but it’s simply not true, in the least. I know MANY engineers and producers who, like me, bias their amps alittle on the colder side for this reason. I turn down the bias on a few of the amps in the axe fx as well, namely the 5150 because even Cliff said the one he modeled was biased hot I believe.

 

[Jim Amsden]

I've had good results with jumped Marshall models where I can use the bright and normal volumes as a combined saturation and tone control. I bring up the normal volume to get the saturation level I want. Then I bring up the bright volume to get the high end I'm looking for. Works great by taking advantage of that huge bright bypass cap. I use the master level to help position the bright level so the bypass cap is in a sweet spot.

 

[Budda]

Have you ever turned a high gain amps master volume up above it’s clipping point?

More likely than not yes.

But they dont have a mark on the knob saying “max clipping here”.

I made the 2203 clip specifically for this thread. Did you listen to it?

 

[LucasLeCompte]

Going into the output EQ in the amp block and push the bass up. I feel like everyone forgets about that tab. It makes getting good tones so easy. Pull out what you dont want and put in what you want.

 

[VESmedic]

Going into the output EQ in the amp block and push the bass up. I feel like everyone forgets about that tab. It makes getting good tones so easy. Pull out what you dont want and put in what you want.

Agreed, definitely forgotten for sure.

 

[VESmedic]

More likely than not yes.

But they dont have a mark on the knob saying “max clipping here”.

I made the 2203 clip specifically for this thread. Did you listen to it?

Sure, but you should be able to tell when it’s starting to clip. You know when it gets super midrangey and almost bloated sounding and you lose a ton of high end and bass? That’s clipping. Either way the headroom parameter is one of, if not the best features to me implemented in the axe, for just this reason.

 

[VESmedic]

Quick mv at 2.5/5/7.5 clip (all knobs at noon)

Buddy, I appreciate the effort here. But, this tells us nothing. You need to use something like waves WLM and volume match all the clips. Everyone is going to be fooled because the last 2 are louder. The only way to fairly judge what the difference is between all 3 clips is to volume match them. Download waves WLM and try it for free if you don’t already have it. Then, we can accurately hear what the differences are and not be fooled by volume.

 

[Budda]

Buddy, I appreciate the effort here. But, this tells us nothing. You need to use something like waves WLM and volume match all the clips. Everyone is going to be fooled because the last 2 are louder. The only way to fairly judge what the difference is between all 3 clips is to volume match them. Download waves WLM and try it for free if you don’t already have it. Then, we can accurately hear what the differences are and not be fooled by volume.

the last two are louder and probably best highlight the difference the mv makes. In the daw the last clip has the smaller waveform.

I dont have that software but if someone else wants to level them, awesome .

 

[GuitarMan2550]

Hi! I've been using an axe fx 3 and before that, an axe fx 2 for many years now. However, I've never been able to dial in a marshall tone I like. To my ears, they sound thin and doesn't have enough bass.

I've never played a real marshall (jcm 800 or plexi) and I know, these amps can be pretty bright. I also know that marshall tone on records like led zeppelin or ACDC have post processing.

But, when I listen to clips on YouTube of Marshall's, even without a real cab (just an ir), they sound so huge!! I'm wondering, what should I do, to get a sound similar to that (big, punchy, not too much gain, just a nice crunch). Also, is it a volume thing ? Like can you only get nice big, fat tones if you play loud ?

I love my axe fx otherwise thank you!

No one else told you, so, I will
1) Go to York Audio's website and get the Marshall 25 cab IR pack.
Load up the IR that is an MD421V-1.
2) Go to the power amp Tab on the Editor and set power tube bias to at least 70%.
This works on every Marshall amp except JMP-1 pre.....that one you do the same, but you have to dig a bit deeper. The stock power amp on that model is weak sounding, so you have to do more tweaking to get it close to the real deal, like they were intended to be used. When Cliff modeled the JMP-1 he should have tried a DSL as the power amp.

The myth turning everything to 10 is just that.....a myth and sounds horribly muddy. Set tonestack controls to around noon and adjust for taste. Gain on a plexi style....use Treble CH and put gain around 4-6 and hit the front with a drive pedal like 90% of every recording you heard. Drive pedal should be set more as a clean boost (low gain/High Level) than a distortion pedal. Many guys will choose different drive pedals. I like the Klon the best. It doesn't cut the low end as much.

3) come back here and thank me

Seriously, I am a Marshall guy and I think the Fractal does a fantastic job on most of those models and I do the above for pretty much each model. I hate to say it, but I have never found an included IR or a dynacab version that gets the job done like that York Audio IR. <<This will give you the beef you are seeking.

Edit: I forgot one....make sure the SIC is set to the appropriate one. With the York Audio IR I use the Friedman GB SIC.

 

[DLC86]

Try these couple of IRs if you want, they're of my 1x12 Hiwatt but, since these are quite dark sounding, I think they balance wonderfully with most marshalls, plexis especially (for my taste at least)

 

[VESmedic]

the last two are louder and probably best highlight the difference the mv makes. In the daw the last clip has the smaller waveform.

I dont have that software but if someone else wants to level them, awesome .

I understand, but volume differences fool people, just for reference. You can also see in the 3rd clip it is much more flat and squared off, aka compressed/clipped.