Can you hear 10ms latency?

G

golfnut

Experienced
I was in Long and McQuade today and almost fell in to temptation to replace my Shure GLXD16+ with the Sennheiser Evolution. The Sennheiser is more expensive. The reason I thought the Sennheiser would be a good replacement is for the ultra low latency. Its at 1.9 ms compared to the 4.8ms of the Shure. My modeler is 5ms. So collectively with the shure around 10ms.
So before I spent the money I thought I'd come home and test how much I could hear this latency. I have read on different guitar forums how many players can hear 10ms of latency.
So I spent about 30-40 minutes back and forth with a direct guitar cable and the wireless system. I figured if it was just a very slight difference I wouldn't worry about spending another $900 on the Sennheiser.
I was surprised that I couldn't hear any difference whatsoever. Either with the cable or the Shure wireless it sounded immediate to me.
So I guess I'll stop obsessing about latency.
But out of curiosity can anyone here attest to being able to hear 10ms with digital audio interfaces or modelers?
 
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No surprise there. 10 ms is the time it takes sound to travel ten feet. If you can’t hear the difference in latency between standing in front of your speaker and standing ten feet away from your speaker, then you can’t hear 10 ms of latency.
 
I can add something on the senheiser aspect. I've used an EW-D CI1 and can attest to it being very low latency but I don't currently use a modeler. I don't notice any delay at all in front of the cab when switching from cable to wireless, but I do get top end rolloff from it even though it's supposed to be 20-20k. For me it feels like I've lost some attack edge, very noticeable to my ears. Not a latency issue but if you have a chance to test it out between cable and wireless give it a try and see if it's for. you. In an analog setup it feels immediate, but has a bit of top end loss at the far top end. If you get the evolution you may want to invest in the rechargeable batteries for it as it seems to chew the disposables up pretty quickly. I only used regular batteries in the event of a failed rechargeable or failed charging event.

The evolution is the only wireless I've ever spent any time with so YMMV and I'm shure someone here can chime in about it better than I :) For all I know they all have an impact on top end or unwanted compression.
 
I made a lot of tests in that direction and my "limit" is 14 ms.
Over 14 I start to feel off if I'm trying tremolo picking and I'm not enjoying the playing as with lower latency.
That's totally subjective.
I found a cheap wireless solutions that has approx. 2ms of latency + FM3 latency + pc latency (if used live) and I'm able to stay at maximum 10/12 ms... that works great for me!
 
unix-guy said:
Might depend on the guitar cable you're using.

If the cable is already rolling off the high end then you might not miss it ;)
Click to expand...

Using a D'addario American Stage. I think the main point is, there isn't more high end rolling off from the cable to wireless. Regardless of where the cable is in rolling off high end, if the wireless added more roll off, I would notice.
 
You can hear the effect of 10ms latency. After 50 years of loud music I had to get hearing aids. For the first few days, every time I put a China plate on the table it sounded cracked. This was due to the processing latency of my new hearing aids, which the manual said was 7 to 8ms, giving a delayed signal. After 10 days my brain adjusted, and the plates sounded normal again.
 
Imo, it's about possible cumulative latency of a given signal chain + distance from ears to monitoring source, and how close that total is to the maximum latency I'll tolerate. So, for my maximum latency tolerance of around 15ms, and given my tendency to want the option to engage external digital fx thru Axfx fx loop, +4.8ms would put me right at my threshold (14.8 4.8 for wireless. +5 for signal chain, +5 for max distance from monitoring I play at). So I'd be opting for the 1.9ms option if possible since, to me, 4.8ms is a lot of "insurance latency" to use up on just one segment of the signal chain.
 
In the abstract, Fractal considerations aside, I sense differences in latency when playing, but don’t hear the specifics. The brain’s adjusting all of the time, so… 🤷🏻

Very thankful for the 3ms! 🤙🏼
 
golfnut said:
Using a D'addario American Stage. I think the main point is, there isn't more high end rolling off from the cable to wireless. Regardless of where the cable is in rolling off high end, if the wireless added more roll off, I would notice.
Click to expand...
If the high end is already rolled off you can't roll it off again - it's already gone.
 
unix-guy said:
If the high end is already rolled off you can't roll it off again - it's already gone.
Click to expand...
^THIS^

If the sound was rolled off at 5K by the first cable or conductor, we wouldn't be able to tell if something else after it tried to roll it off at 8K. Reverse that, with the second rolling off at a lower frequency, then it might be noticeable when it's added/removed from the circuit.
 
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