Silent Stages Are The Best Thing To Happen To Live Music/Are The Worst Thing To Happen To Live Music??

[Stratman68]

Many years ago, oh circa 1979, in Vero Beach we did the rounds with other bands and a band came from Georgia, I think. No amps on stage.
Looked so weird at the time. Was new to me anyway. Band was great though. small venue maybe 250 people inside.
2 guitars, keyboard, bass and a female singer. I was amazed. Very advanced for the time imho.
But I digress. I would rather have amps and monitors o stage....Just feels tight to me!

 

[Rane]

In ear monitoring is a god-send. I agree that some of the vib can be lost, especially with a poor quality system, but the benefits of being able to use clicks, talkbacks, tracks, protect hearing, customize monitor mixes, control stage volume, and ultimately sound 10x better than you otherwise would… who would ever want stage monitors back? Especially in small and medium venues. That nasty, muddy, loud club band sound. No loss. Anyone who thinks that should come back is blinded by nostalgia.

 

[fcs101]

As a sound guy I love the Silent Stage at church. As a guitar player I like it, especially when I have stereo in-ears and can pan instruments where i like. I personally feel More connection with my band mates when I can really hear what they’re playing, which is true with in-ear. From across the stage I’ll smile at our keys player for something cool he did. Back on the day I’d hear mostly drums and my screaming amp…

And then there's guys like me that see the drummer in his plexiglass cage like an exhibit in the zoo...

 

[la szum]

In ear monitoring is a god-send. I agree that some of the vib can be lost, especially with a poor quality system, but the benefits of being able to use clicks, talkbacks, tracks, protect hearing, customize monitor mixes, control stage volume, and ultimately sound 10x better than you otherwise would… who would ever want stage monitors back? Especially in small and medium venues. That nasty, muddy, loud club band sound. No loss. Anyone who thinks that should come back is blinded by nostalgia.

Are live performances, in general, 10x better since IEMs and amp/cab-less stages???

 

[steadystate]

In an ideal situation, I'd prefer elements of both paradigms. IMO, a well-mixed stereo in ear monitor can't be beat. If I were using cabs on stage, the level would be set such that I get the desired amount of acoustic reinforcement/feedback to the guitar. That level certainly isn't 100 w cranked full. And I'd still use an in-ear mix with a great seal and run at a low level in that circumstance.

 

[fcs101]

In ear monitoring is a god-send. I agree that some of the vib can be lost, especially with a poor quality system, but the benefits of being able to use clicks, talkbacks, tracks, protect hearing, customize monitor mixes, control stage volume, and ultimately sound 10x better than you otherwise would… who would ever want stage monitors back? Especially in small and medium venues. That nasty, muddy, loud club band sound. No loss. Anyone who thinks that should come back is blinded by nostalgia.

You can have it both ways. Joe Bonamassa uses baffles in front of his amps to control the stage volume. Gotta say it's really cool to see him in concert and see the Dumble and the classic Fenders up there on stage with him. One of his passions is to actually take this historic gear on tour and make use of it.

I do disagree with your comment about nostalgia, because I don't see it as an either/or proposition; I think there's room for both. Plus, I see (or hypothesize, if you like) that the technology can make lazy musicians (if not kept in check). Admittedly, I'm very glad for the tech, but sometimes we rely on it too much. Case in point for me is that I once knew a drummer that couldn't perform w/o a click track (btw, I detest click tracks, but that's for a different thread).

Just offering a different perspective. BTW, I do agree with your comment about how, especially for small venues, the mix can get nasty and muddy.

 

[fcs101]

I just saw this on Joe Bonamassa's IG after posting the above:

 

[dpeterson]

Or a singer.

Dude it’s getting worse each year.

 

[Rane]

You can have it both ways. Joe Bonamassa uses baffles in front of his amps to control the stage volume. Gotta say it's really cool to see him in concert and see the Dumble and the classic Fenders up there on stage with him. One of his passions is to actually take this historic gear on tour and make use of it.

I do disagree with your comment about nostalgia, because I don't see it as an either/or proposition; I think there's room for both. Plus, I see (or hypothesize, if you like) that the technology can make lazy musicians (if not kept in check). Admittedly, I'm very glad for the tech, but sometimes we rely on it too much. Case in point for me is that I once knew a drummer that couldn't perform w/o a click track (btw, I detest click tracks, but that's for a different thread).

Just offering a different perspective. BTW, I do agree with your comment about how, especially for small venues, the mix can get nasty and muddy.

Room size and quality is key. If you’re in a small or medium untreated room, most full bands are going sound awful with stage monitors and live amps.

I agree that you can have it both ways in large venues and some well-treated spaces.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

A historical perspective might be in order.

MANY years ago, when The Doobie Brothers were in their original incarnation, Guitar Player magazine reported in an interview that they got tired of the volume on stage and switched from big amps in a back-line to small amps in front of them, tipped back to allow easy monitoring and miking. I think that was something that Jeff Baxter suggested. The band said they were really happy with the control and quality of the sound.

Big amps and cabinets came about because the P.A. systems of the day were not capable of handling the instruments and vocals at the same time, so vocals were amplified and the instruments had to supply their own equivalent volume. Townsend, Clapton and The Beatles and Hendrix were playing big spaces and wanted to be heard, it was a necessity then. Now FOH systems are hundreds of times more powerful than they were and are more than capable of handling everything but people still think the back line needs to run at 110+db.

Many people, bands, and musicians, look at big amps and loud volume as a macho thing, akin to big loud 4x4 pickups with gun-racks, it’s their right to swing their… parts… however they want of course, but there’s a very happy middle ground on stages.

The formula in a venue is

happy_venue_owner = (100*happy_customers)+band_opinion

In other words, the venue owner is going to listen to what the customers say a lot more often and a lot more closely and the band’s opinion means little. If the customers like the volume, the venue will allow loud music. That’s within limits though, because customers and staff who can’t be heard don’t find it easy to order or receive orders for drinks and meals, and that pisses off the owner.

The attitude that bands can be as loud as they want because it’s an artistic expression is what lead to the silent stage mandate. A more reasonable approach was the Doobie Brothers attitude of keeping the stage volume under control and letting the FOH sound engineer, who is in the audience, control the overall volume. Modelers and IEM systems fit into all situations and the owners are happy with reasonable to no volume more often, so that’s why we’re seeing the situation more and more often.

There’s handwriting on the wall that’s worth paying attention to. Not being willing to work with the audience and the venue on controlling the volume results in bands being replaced with recorded music and the bands being legends in their own basements and garages.

 

[fcs101]

A historical perspective might be in order.

MANY years ago, when The Doobie Brothers were in their original incarnation, Guitar Player magazine reported in an interview that they got tired of the volume on stage and switched from big amps in a back-line to small amps in front of them, tipped back to allow easy monitoring and miking. I think that was something that Jeff Baxter suggested. The band said they were really happy with the control and quality of the sound.

Big amps and cabinets came about because the P.A. systems of the day were not capable of handling the instruments and vocals at the same time, so vocals were amplified and the instruments had to supply their own equivalent volume. Townsend, Clapton and The Beatles and Hendrix were playing big spaces and wanted to be heard, it was a necessity then. Now FOH systems are hundreds of times more powerful than they were and are more than capable of handling everything but people still think the back line needs to run at 110+db.

Many people, bands, and musicians, look at big amps and loud volume as a macho thing, akin to big loud 4x4 pickups with gun-racks, it’s their right to swing their… parts… however they want of course, but there’s a very happy middle ground on stages.

The formula in a venue is

happy_venue_owner = (100*happy_customers)+band_opinion

In other words, the venue owner is going to listen to what the customers say a lot more often and a lot more closely and the band’s opinion means little. If the customers like the volume, the venue will allow loud music. That’s within limits though, because customers and staff who can’t be heard don’t find it easy to order or receive orders for drinks and meals, and that pisses off the owner.

The attitude that bands can be as loud as they want because it’s an artistic expression is what lead to the silent stage mandate. A more reasonable approach was the Doobie Brothers attitude of keeping the stage volume under control and letting the FOH sound engineer, who is in the audience, control the overall volume. Modelers and IEM systems fit into all situations and the owners are happy with reasonable to no volume more often, so that’s why we’re seeing the situation more and more often.

There’s handwriting on the wall that’s worth paying attention to. Not being willing to work with the audience and the venue on controlling the volume results in bands being replaced with recorded music and the bands being legends in their own basements and garages.

Absolutely agree. I think the OP was coming more from the frustration of not having the amp on the stage because it is a different feel when you're playing. It's been talked about on this board quite a bit that there's a different feel when you're playing next to an amp at volume.

If a venue owner is hiring a band to come in, then clearly that band has to play by his rules. On the other hand a touring act sets their own rules since they're renting the venue. Sorry to keep throwing Bonamassa's name out there, but I was really impressed. Saw him at the Ryman, which I would classify as a medium-sized space. The man plays loud with the amps on stage and the sound was very well mixed.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Absolutely agree. I think the OP was coming more from the frustration of not having the amp on the stage because it is a different feel when you're playing. It's been talked about on this board quite a bit that there's a different feel when you're playing next to an amp at volume.

The acoustic-coupling is missing with IEM systems, and that affects the sound of the guitar going into the modeler. It doesn't take a big FRFR or guitar cab to get that coupling working, nor does it take a crazy amount of volume if the guitar is within 4' of the speaker. A good quality mic-stand mounted monitor would be fine if the guitarist is standing right in front of it, as long as magnetic coupling doesn't kick in.

If a venue owner is hiring a band to come in, then clearly that band has to play by his rules. On the other hand a touring act sets their own rules since they're renting the venue. Sorry to keep throwing Bonamassa's name out there, but I was really impressed. Saw him at the Ryman, which I would classify as a medium-sized space. The man plays loud with the amps on stage and the sound was very well mixed.

Bonamassa îs a very good example of someone who took back the control of his business and the responsibility for his own success. I first was impressed by his playing, then got tired of it and stopped listening, then I noticed his dry, self-deprecating, sense of humor and realized he's not the average player and that brought me back to being a big fan of his because he doesn't take himself seriously. He knows who he is, laughs about it, and has a blast playing. I really liked this interview, this is pt. 1 and I recommend watching all three parts:

 

[fcs101]

The acoustic-coupling is missing with IEM systems, and that affects the sound of the guitar going into the modeler. It doesn't take a big FRFR or guitar cab to get that coupling working, nor does it take a crazy amount of volume if the guitar is within 4' of the speaker. A good quality mic-stand mounted monitor would be fine if the guitarist is standing right in front of it, as long as magnetic coupling doesn't kick in.

I'm talking more about the physical feel of "moving air" and how that affects the perfomer. It's just a different physical feel as opposed to IEMs.

I really liked this interview, this is pt. 1 and I recommend watching all three parts:

I've seen that one and it is very good. Not sure if you've seen this series or not, but you might enjoy it (here is Part 1 of 3). JB actually had to teach himself to sing in order to get where he is. I really enjoy seeing the sense of loyalty between him and his manager.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Yes, that's my other favorite video of him. I think he's got a lot of excellent information in that video that every musician should listen to and take to heart.

 

[mwd]

We play in a hybrid band with backing track and 3 live musicians using a silent stage. Hardest gig we've ever pulled off in 5 decades of playing, zero margin of error, but the silent stage is the best thing we have ever done.

 

[bchulse]

Just saw DT on Sat 3/5 in Wallingford CT. Stage looked pretty empty. Nice video wall backdrop all night.
JP had his 2 1x12's pointing at him, but nothing in back. Looked like JohnM had Bass Pedals or
footswitch on floor, that's it. Small drum kit for Mangini also. JP went up on the platform where his cabs
normally reside to use a lone Wah pedal several times. Looks like an easy setup for roadies...

But man, JP's guitar was slamming all night. So loud and clear, often too loud, and overpowered bass
and keys. Drums were mixed low, but everything came up as night progressed. Great show.

 

[Casimir]

This is a really thoughtful article for the case against IEMs from a Praise and Worship perspective.

Let me be the first to shout, "Blasphemy!!!"

https://www.grantnorsworthy.com/deep-purple-case-ear-monitors/


"Do IEMs help or hinder connection? Togetherness? I am going to argue that, in most Church music situations, IEMs hinder.

Consider this: The main purpose of IEMs is to isolate, not to connect. To give the singer or instrumentalist a monitor sound that is separate, cut off, individualized and distinct from the sound of others in the ensemble and the sound that the congregation is hearing.

From the audio technician’s perspective, IEMs help isolate the room sound from the stage sound. IEMs give the FOH audio engineer greater control, but does so by isolating the elements from one another.

But we’re aiming for connection, not isolation!

This isolation goes beyond just the technicalities of sound. Singers and instrumentalists using IEMs can easily feel musically and even personally isolated too! Comments from IEM users often include statements like:

“I find them helpful but don’t enjoy them.”

“I don’t like ‘em, but I guess they’re a necessary evil.”

“For singing with loud bands I understand why you would use them.”

“I hate them because my voice feels isolated and the music never blends together like it does in a room.”

“I find it so hard to be connected with the band, the song and the crowd.”

“They’re a vibe killer.”

To my mind, the “vibe” that is being killed – or at least badly wounded – with IEMs is connection. Our main objective is being sacrificed in favor of lesser objectives like sonic clarity, the desire for more control and the monitor requirements of individuals."

Great article! As a primarily P&W player, I try to leave one ear out for this very reason.

 

[la szum]

Room size and quality is key. If you’re in a small or medium untreated room, most full bands are going sound awful with stage monitors and live amps.

I agree that you can have it both ways in large venues and some well-treated spaces.

Isn't genre important, though? I can't imagine an hardcore or punk band going silent stage even
in a small club setting. I don't get anywhere close to the impression that every musician/band is aiming
for the pristine sonic performance. Lots of iconic acts have even forsaken that pursuit and even try and
capture a "live" feel in the studio---which has its own challenges.

 

[la szum]

Dude it’s getting worse each year.

It has to be hard to try and pull off their catalogue live. I wouldn't want to
have his job.

One of the issues live is his style doesn't project very well for such a "heavy" band,
because he is pretty much stuck in his overly nasal head voice all night.

 

[la szum]

Just saw DT on Sat 3/5 in Wallingford CT. Stage looked pretty empty. Nice video wall backdrop all night.
JP had his 2 1x12's pointing at him, but nothing in back. Looked like JohnM had had Bass Pedals or
footswitch on floor, that's it. Small drum kit for Mangini also. JP went up on the platform where his cabs
normally reside to use a lone Wah pedal several times. Looks like an easy setup for roadies...

But man, JP's guitar was slamming all night. So loud and clear, often too loud, and overpowered bass
and keys. Drums were mixed low, but everything came up as night progressed. Great show.

Wow. Makes you wonder how much of the silent stage phenomenon is about streamlining
the load in and load out, i.e., having to take/pay a smaller crew, having fewer trucks on the
road, etc.?

The argument that going silent stage results in a superior sound and performance by default is
not an argument I personally buy.