Why are we chasing the amp in the room sound?

[sprint]

...but when he turns the amp on, he’ll probably be surprised that he doesn’t sound like SRV. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

He'll have no way to get there as he has no frame of reference given that he's never heard SRV's in the room tone. He could ask others, but few, if any could describe it to him precisely since no-one has heard SRV's in the room guitar tone since before he left this earth. Live recordings might help him somewhat, but those are recorded also, so maybe not so much. In all likelihood, he'll instinctively learn toward the only SRV tone he knows (the recorded one) using the tools that best suit doing that.

 

[luke]

If you want to know what you are missing, use this to see:

https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Realtime_Analyzer_block

 

[Cephara]

This is what re-amping is for. I don't care how it sounds in the room. I care how it sounds in the mix. Even then, I find it most relevant when going for a high-gain rhythm tone.

I don't think most people even go for the room sound. I think they go for what it sounds like in the end mix (which I agree gives bad results in your own mix). Hence why tone is one of the last things I really worry about when tracking. Once you get serious about mixing, I think most people realize pretty quickly that their guitar tones are wimpy when chasing that mixed tone.

 

[Jason Scott]

I don't think most people even go for the room sound. I think they go for what it sounds like in the end mix (which I agree gives bad results in your own mix).

Plenty of players don't record.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

The wiki and tech notes along with the FM3 and FX3 manuals all talk about this so read them because it's an essential concept for using a modeler.

"Amp in the room" is a myth, it's the result of standing outside the beaming of the sound coming from the speaker in the guitar cabinet so you're not hearing the real frequency balance being output by the speaker. If we had ears in our knees like crickets our amps would sound much like modelers or close-miked amps.

Point the speaker at your ear and the sound will become much closer to the sound of a modeler. Get on-axis within 12" of the speaker and it'll sound amazingly like the modeler... or like the sound of a miked amp into a recording console or to the FOH.

If you want "amp in the room" you can add filters in your preset to reduce the frequency response like a recording or FOH engineer would, or you could drive your favorite cabinet with a flat-response power amp and remove the cab block from your preset, or turn off the power-amp modeling and remove the cab and go into the power-amp in/effects loop return of your amp, but with the last two you lose some of the main advantages of using a modeler. Again, this is all covered in many places in the wiki, the tech notes, and in the manuals.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Being a performing musican and also an FOH or monitor engineer really helps you understand this in each possible scenario.

I'm coming from that experience too, so the whole "amp in the room" thing makes no sense to me; It's just on-axis or off-axis and an open-back cabinet with reflected sound vs. a closed-back with the sound coming directly from the speaker.

 

[James Nash]

if you had the chance to hear Pat Metheny's sound up close as he hears it and has chased it himself, you'd probably prefer it to his recorded sound.

I think I might prefer the recorded sound. I think Metheny might too.

This gets to the question of what motivates a player. Because players don't spend most of their time LISTENING to their tone. They spend the time USING it. For me, the "best" guitar tone is the one that inspires me to play my best. What it actually sounds like to an objective observer is second priority--if I get off on the sound, the tone is doing its job. Everyone may not agree with that perspective, but I think many do.

This is why great players want to work with great engineers. They're not thinking "my tone is perfect, YOU just have to capture it." Most guitarists aren't that arrogant. I think most are thinking, "my tone is great, but I want YOU to make it even better."

Eddie Van Halen was a brilliant player, and he sounded amazing live. But I have NEVER heard a bootleg where the TONE was as good as on VH I. Donn Landee and Ted Templeman and others did more than capture his tone. They captured the ESSENCE of what he was doing musically.

And this is also where good producers know when to lay off. I've had that experience before in the studio where I like the tone I'm getting "in the room," and the producer says it sounds bassy. He comes in and tweaks a few knobs, likes the tone better in the control room, but I complain I don't like the sound anymore. A smart producer goes back to what the player likes and fixes it with microphone position or eq or whatever in the mix.

I think the ultimate goal of gear is to inspire performance. So if a 4x12 cabinet aimed at the back of your legs inspires you, that's the right solution for you. I just relate to many here who have gone that route, and never fully bonded with that sound onstage. My best experiences with 100 watt heads into 4x12 cabinets have been monitoring in the control room, where what I'm hearing is a microphone or two (and probably some rumbling through the wall..)

 

[yeky83]

The wiki and tech notes along with the FM3 and FX3 manuals all talk about this so read them because it's an essential concept for using a modeler.

"Amp in the room" is a myth, it's the result of standing outside the beaming of the sound coming from the speaker in the guitar cabinet so you're not hearing the real frequency balance being output by the speaker. If we had ears in our knees like crickets our amps would sound much like modelers or close-miked amps.

Point the speaker at your ear and the sound will become much closer to the sound of a modeler. Get on-axis within 12" of the speaker and it'll sound amazingly like the modeler... or like the sound of a miked amp into a recording console or to the FOH.

You should actually read the wiki you linked, cus it repeatedly legitimizes "amp in the room" over and over again. No mention of it being a myth.

There's no such thing as "the real frequency balance being output by the speaker." There's a speaker response at a listener location dependent on speaker directivity.

Point a guitar cab at your ear and you get a massive 10dB spike at 2kHz. That's not the response of any usable sounding mic'ed cab IR.

I think I might prefer the recorded sound. I think Metheny might too.

This gets to the question of what motivates a player. Because players don't spend most of their time LISTENING to their tone. They spend the time USING it. For me, the "best" guitar tone is the one that inspires me to play my best. What it actually sounds like to an objective observer is second priority--if I get off on the sound, the tone is doing its job. Everyone may not agree with that perspective, but I think many do.

This is why great players want to work with great engineers. They're not thinking "my tone is perfect, YOU just have to capture it." Most guitarists aren't that arrogant. I think most are thinking, "my tone is great, but I want YOU to make it even better."

Eddie Van Halen was a brilliant player, and he sounded amazing live. But I have NEVER heard a bootleg where the TONE was as good as on VH I. Donn Landee and Ted Templeman and others did more than capture his tone. They captured the ESSENCE of what he was doing musically.

And this is also where good producers know when to lay off. I've had that experience before in the studio where I like the tone I'm getting "in the room," and the producer says it sounds bassy. He comes in and tweaks a few knobs, likes the tone better in the control room, but I complain I don't like the sound anymore. A smart producer goes back to what the player likes and fixes it with microphone position or eq or whatever in the mix.

I think the ultimate goal of gear is to inspire performance. So if a 4x12 cabinet aimed at the back of your legs inspires you, that's the right solution for you. I just relate to many here who have gone that route, and never fully bonded with that sound onstage. My best experiences with 100 watt heads into 4x12 cabinets have been monitoring in the control room, where what I'm hearing is a microphone or two (and probably some rumbling through the wall..)

That's fine, you chase whatever sound inspires you.

I don't even know what exactly we're discussing anymore. Our original disagreement was over your statement of "electric guitar tones are largely a studio creation." I still don't see any reason you offer other than "I like it, so that's what it is."

If you're trying to suggest great guitar players like Eddie Van Halen chased and preferred the recorded sound for playing, that's obviously nonsense. The vast majority of "guitar greats" use guitar cabs because that's what inspires them. You clicked like on a post that calls the "amp in the room" sound a "myth," and it simply isn't.

 

[DLC86]

I'm coming from that experience too, so the whole "amp in the room" thing makes no sense to me; It's just on-axis or off-axis and an open-back cabinet with reflected sound vs. a closed-back with the sound coming directly from the speaker.

The "amp-in-the-room" thing has nothing to do with being on-axis or off-axis with the speaker.
I always have my amps/cabs aimed towards my head in our rehearsal room and.. still sounds different than an IR.

 

[Neill00]

You do get to do that. Which of these two options gets you to sound more like Eric Johnson? You with all of Eric Johnson's guitar, amp, pedals, etc., playing with an IR that makes you sound like his album? Or the same but now using the same guitar cabs he uses? Seems pretty simple to me.

If a kid grew up today listening to SRV recordings and wanted to sound like SRV, he's going to sound a hell of a lot more like SRV plugged into whatever Fender cab he used than using some Fender IR. How is this debatable? Need to be their friend or be in their house or you can't know? lol

You totally missed my point. If you aren’t in the room with SRV to hear how his gear actually sounds un-mic’d, how can you possibly copy it. You can’t just do it by playing the same gear he used. Unless of course, his guitar tech delivered the gear to your door with all the knobs taped in position. Even then, you’d just have to imagine that’s his tone, unless of course it sounds like it did on recordings or how his amp sounded mic’d if you were lucky enough to hear him live and could remember that far back. So even with his gear you’d have no reference other than his mic’d sound. That’s how this is debatable.

 

[sprint]

You totally missed my point. If you aren’t in the room with SRV to hear how his gear actually sounds un-mic’d, how can you possibly copy it. You can’t just do it by playing the same gear he used. Unless of course, his guitar tech delivered the gear to your door with all the knobs taped in position. Even then, you’d just have to imagine that’s his tone, unless of course it sounds like it did on recordings or how his amp sounded mic’d if you were lucky enough to hear him live and could remember that far back. So even with his gear you’d have no reference other than his mic’d sound. That’s how this is debatable.

Seems wierd to me that this statement is almost exactly what I stated above (post 101).

 

[Neill00]

Yes same point, he responded to me and I was responded to his post before I read the rest of the thread. It’s not really weird other than you DO understand the point I had been originally making.

 

[flageolet]

Sure it exists. I thought that was accepted as well as you can t replicate with frfr. I tried myself, with all the tips i saw here over the years, but it s not even close. Give me a cab any day. Now to get the high frequencies a bit less harsh, and it s perfect

 

[yeky83]

You totally missed my point. If you aren’t in the room with SRV to hear how his gear actually sounds un-mic’d, how can you possibly copy it. You can’t just do it by playing the same gear he used. Unless of course, his guitar tech delivered the gear to your door with all the knobs taped in position. Even then, you’d just have to imagine that’s his tone, unless of course it sounds like it did on recordings or how his amp sounded mic’d if you were lucky enough to hear him live and could remember that far back. So even with his gear you’d have no reference other than his mic’d sound. That’s how this is debatable.

You're pretending as if there's no way to find out where SRV had his knobs turned lol, be a little resourceful.

And if you put SRV on some random Strat and a random Fender amp, he'd still sound like SRV. Put the same gear in Michael Landau's hand, and he'd sound like himself. Gear goes only so far, the rest is practice. The point is, you can't hope to replicate the experience and sound of playing through a guitar cab by using close-mic'ed IRs of said cabs.

 

[Neill00]

You’re getting a little off topic when talking about playing techniques. That’s a cliché that’s been voiced countless times and isn’t really relevant to this discussion. Except that it almost counters your argument that you could buy the same gear SRV used, look up his settings and achieve his tone. Although you still wouldn’t know if you were successful unless you’d heard him un-mic’d.

The point of not being able to achieve the amp in the room sound with an IR was never in dispute, I conceded that in my first post when I started the thread. The question is why, and as you can see reading through that thread, it’s all very subjective as I had suspected it would be. I was just looking to have a discussion on people’s reasons as I’ve abandoned the notion myself. I no longer think it’s a better sound or relevant to anything I’m doing with my gear. IRs are faster and easier for recording and give great results and as far as live, way more consistent than mic’ing an amp cab.

 

[James Nash]

The vast majority of "guitar greats" use guitar cabs because that's what inspires them.

The vast majority of guitar greats established their sound long before IRs were available. But my point is not about IRs, it’s about “amp in room” vs microphone.

If you were lucky enough to hear EVH play a keg party in 1974, then you heard his “amp in a room.” Otherwise, you heard his tone through a microphone like the rest of us.

 

[sprint]

I’ve abandoned the notion myself. I no longer think it’s a better sound or relevant to anything I’m doing with my gear.

I'm trying to abandon the notion also as I've been unsuccessful so far, in fully appreciating the value of it - but still not quite ready to give up. Inspired by this thread, I had the 2 mesa cabs and tube amp fired up last night A/Bing to FR Cab sounds - still like the more "refined" sound of the FR (I could start EQing, swapping cabs, speakers .... but have been down that rabbit hole before...maybe I'll mic the Mesas in another room and see how that sounds doh!). Very subjective as you point out, but some "FR preferers" keep trying to chase and discover the "in the room" magic based on the mystique that surrounds it, and/or because there can be bias in some guitarist communities suggesting that if your not pushing air through a real cab your somehow not fully playing electric guitar (or it's inferred that one is somehow "willfully ignorant" lol!).

 

[yeky83]

You’re getting a little off topic when talking about playing techniques. That’s a cliché that’s been voiced countless times and isn’t really relevant to this discussion. Except that it almost counters your argument that you could buy the same gear SRV used, look up his settings and achieve his tone. Although you still wouldn’t know if you were successful unless you’d heard him un-mic’d.

As opposed to, you'd know you definitely were unsuccessful if you only played through a mic'ed cab.

The vast majority of guitar greats established their sound long before IRs were available. But my point is not about IRs, it’s about “amp in room” vs microphone.

If you were lucky enough to hear EVH play a keg party in 1974, then you heard his “amp in a room.” Otherwise, you heard his tone through a microphone like the rest of us.

I never said otherwise, dunno what point you're trying to make.

if your not pushing air through a real cab your somehow not fully playing electric guitar (or it's inferred that one is somehow "willfully ignorant" lol!).

That's not the thread topic and not what I said.

 

[yeky83]

Folks, if you want to tackle my argument, address the organ thing. Would you tell organ players the same thing you're saying here?

"Since what we hear on an album is never the actual sound of the organ, 'organ tones' are largely a studio creation. Forget your thousand pound monstrous thing you lug around cus it sounds like an organ, that's not actual 'organ tones.' Play this amazing plugin through these great studio monitors and now THAT's 'organ tones.'"
"You can't possibly know what some great organ player sounded like nor even hope to recreate it in your playing with your organ, you can only hope to reach for the recorded tone."
etc.

It sounds ridiculous. We don't do this with other instruments, but we sure do get conceptually weird about electric guitars.

 

[James Nash]

Pipe organs are designed to fill rooms with sound. Guitar amps are not.

Back in the 1960s, yes, guitar amps were essentially designed to be room filling PA systems. But by the 1970s it was standard practice to mic guitar amps at venues of any size. The guitar amp quickly evolved into a tone GENERATOR, not a tone PROJECTOR. What we think of as classic guitar sounds are what was captured by a microphone. When we saw these iconic players, we heard them through PA systems.

This is not true of pipe organs. The classic pipe organ sound is what we heard at church. No microphone, no PA.