Differing amp model output levels

Another update, and further on what seems a related subject:

I am having trouble getting the same peak levels with both delays up and I'm wondering if this has anything to do with the extra Amp Block B output boost I need to bring the dry stereo amp block pair to the same level? No matter what I do, I can't get them even, even with very fine adjustments on the input gain on the R delay block. Its like a seesaw I can never balance. Does this have anything to do with the linear nature of the blocks in the grid vs my signal chain and is related to B/Left amp block being 6.5 higher than the A/Right at the beginning?

And to make matters worse, the output 1 meter on the Axe 3 meter screen and the Axe edit screen seem off from the LEDs on the Axe front panel, and my ears tell me the actual R output level is lower than it represents on all 3. I have switched monitors and its not downstream from the Axe. Someone recently said the meters in Axe edit aren't as accurate as the front LEDs, which is tough since the LEDs are not detailed as the meters in terms of knowing how close you are to 0.

To be clear, anyone who looks at this preset will see that I have the feedback higher on the shorter forward delay in order to try and balance the decay times after stopping input. Is this also making balancing the L/R delay levels harder?

Thanks in advance for any help!

ps, the delay mix settings are both supposed to be 100%, that's how tired I was!
 

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chris said:
they model the amps accurately. to normalize volume would not be accurate and an extra step.

at what gain setting though? the gain reacts differently on different models, so if the volume is normalized, the amp wouldn't react as it does on the real thing.
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Yeah, I don’t know how to explain this any better. At the default settings for gain (and everything else), whatever they are. And I know it is an extra step for FAS to do this, but it’s also an extra step for us right now at default settings. Heck, go back to the “louder sounds better” bias that we have, even. You can’t compare easily.

Anyway, it’s a nice-to-have in my book, not a deal breaker. I’m done trying to convince people that there is a different way to do this that might be valid.
 
greiswig said:
Yeah, I don’t know how to explain this any better. At the default settings for gain (and everything else), whatever they are. And I know it is an extra step for FAS to do this, but it’s also an extra step for us right now at default settings. Heck, go back to the “louder sounds better” bias that we have, even. You can’t compare easily.

Anyway, it’s a nice-to-have in my book, not a deal breaker. I’m done trying to convince people that there is a different way to do this that might be valid.
Click to expand...


What is a "default" setting for gain though ?? If you take ten players, who own a given real world amp, all ten of those players are going to have the "gain", be it called OD, volume, gain et al., on the respective amp, set differently.

The default is simply that, a given point of knob settings for when you select the amp model. Its not the "best" setting, it simply has to start somewhere, often a noon. If I call up a given model, and its gain is set to "8" and its MV, output etc is dialed in for an relatively equal output level to another amp model what do I do if I don't like the gain set at 8 ?? I back it off, but then I need to also adjust the output level, so where the time saving or ease of use for me ?

It would be no different if I had a studio full of amps, and a tech went and adjusted them all randomly so they were equal loudness as I swapped between them with a fancy switching system. He set my JCM800 with gain on "8", and my Super Reverb with gain on "3" but lots of output level to make it louder, etc etc. Well suppose I don't like running my Super Reverb with the input set to 3 ?? What if I like running it at a cranking "7" because I think that sounds best ? Then with the output turned up its way too loud, so I need to turn that down.

I think in some ways we'd be best served with defaults all set at 0, and then everyone would have to set the knobs to where they want them, just like when you pull a real amp out of the box. There isn't any default, knobs are there to be turned.

Practically its a bit simpler to have them at a reason setting, be it everythign at noon, or what have you, but this doesn't mean they are all going to sound equal, nor does it even mean its where they are going to sound "best"

If you want someone to do all the work, and make some subjective decisions on what sounds good, then buy Austin Buddy's preset pack. He went and setup tons of amps and cabs, dialed everything in to where he thinks they sound best, and also adjusted the output levels so you can pretty much go preset to preset.

It works well and there are lots of great sounds in his pack, but its still just one mans opinion of how to set an amp, and any given user may disagree with his settings. Again, that is why there are knobs, both on real amps and amp models, so you can dial in to taste, and then on the Axe, we are lucky to be able to to have our given tone, at any given output level.
 
I think we're trying to say "default" is everything at noon, like when you reset the amp block. If all the models were leveled, it would be a lot easier to audition different amps for a general tone/sound THEN adjust gain, treble, mid, bass etc. I really don't understand why there's resistance to this idea. Oh well, if @greiswig is out on the subject so am I (until someone else brings it up again). Peace...
 
I personally do understand the wish, but I don’t make the gear either. Normalized Volume (and similar concepts like this one including “make the default sound ‘good’”) have been a desire since the first Axe standard and ultra.
 
chris said:
I personally do understand the wish, but I don’t make the gear either. Normalized Volume (and similar concepts like this one including “make the default sound ‘good’”) have been a desire since the first Axe standard and ultra.
Click to expand...
I think a nice compromise would be an option to choose normalization across amps or not.

That feature would make everyone happy.
 
if my memory serves me right, when this came up a while ago fractal audio said smth like "since the amps react different to different guitars/pick ups etc it would never be possible to match the perceived or actual volume of different amps or different amp channels(not abcd block channels, i mean like clean and lead channel of an amp".

i agree, it would make things easier if the gap between some amps wasnt 10db (just throwing a nr out there, i didnt measure it).

This being said i also think scrolling through is not the best-right way to compare amps. Setting the amp as intended and using scenes or amp channels makes more sense.
 
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Semih Yanyali said:
"since the amps react different to different guitars/pick ups etc it would be never possible to match the perceived or actual volume of different amps or different amp channels".

i also think it would make things easier if the gap between some amps wasnt 10db (just throwing a nr out there, i didnt measure it).
Click to expand...

Getting them within 3-6db of each other would be a significant improvement.
 
Semih Yanyali said:
if my memory serves me right, when this came up a while ago fractal audio said smth like "since the amps react different to different guitars/pick ups etc it would never be possible to match the perceived or actual volume of different amps or different amp channels(not abcd block channels, i mean like clean and lead channel of an amp".

i agree, it would make things easier if the gap between some amps wasnt 10db (just throwing a nr out there, i didnt measure it).

This being said i also think scrolling through is not the best-right way to compare amps. Setting the amp as intended and using scenes or amp channels makes more sense.
Click to expand...


responding to my own post:)

when i think more about it i believe actually there is no solution to this. even if the default setting volumes would be programmed closer to each other right after you set an amp the levels will be all over the place. example i dime the gain with plexis but turn it down with morgans...or dime treble and mids with the plexi but turn treble down with a twin reverb...and changing these settings make a huge volume difference with some amps.
 
Semih Yanyali said:
responding to my own post:)

when i think more about it i believe actually there is no solution to this. even if the default setting volumes would be programmed closer to each other right after you set an amp the levels will be all over the place. example i dime the gain with plexis but turn it down with morgans...or dime treble and mids with the plexi but turn treble down with a twin reverb...
Click to expand...
Normalization could occur post settings. Again some might not like this but to have the option would be nice.
It’s as simple as amp block output = a constant. A similar concept would be normalizing MP3 levels across a library of music. It’s already a thing so should be doable here.
 
Semih Yanyali said:
responding to my own post:)

when i think more about it i believe actually there is no solution to this. even if the default setting volumes would be programmed closer to each other right after you set an amp the levels will be all over the place. example i dime the gain with plexis but turn it down with morgans...or dime treble and mids with the plexi but turn treble down with a twin reverb...and changing these settings make a huge volume difference with some amps.
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
I don’t mind having to balance amp block output levels, my problem as stated originally and several times in this thread, is whether having two parallel amp signal chains with amp offsets of +7 dB creates level problems further down the signal chain because of the linear, time invariant nature of the grid. I am having trouble balancing L R delay and other downstream block outputs when one amp block is +7 up front. I hope it’s just me overlooking something and not a bigger problem. Has anybody else had this experience?
 
King’s X - Jason said:
Normalization could occur post settings. Again some might not like this but to have the option would be nice.
It’s as simple as amp block output = a constant. A similar concept would be normalizing MP3 levels across a library of music. It’s already a thing so should be doable here.
Click to expand...

the volume depends highly on your playing-interaction of guitar and amp. an mp3 is a prerecorded-finalized audio.

normalization is a process, its not done live. it just finds the peak of audio and sees how much headroom is left to lift the whole level. and this cant be done with live playing-in the moment with your guitar and amp selections.

i cant think of a way of making what you say work.
 
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stereotactic said:
I don’t mind having to balance amp block output levels, my problem as stated originally and several times in this thread, is whether having two parallel amp signal chains with amp offsets of +7 dB creates level problems further down the signal chain because of the linear, time invariant nature of the grid. I am having trouble balancing L R delay and other downstream block outputs when one amp block is +7 up front. I hope it’s just me overlooking something and not a bigger problem. Has anybody else had this experience?
Click to expand...
no, because the resulting Level number doesn't/shouldn't matter if it creates the amount of signal you want to hear. the delay doesn't see numbers, that one is +7 and another is -5, "so one is clearly louder by 12dB." it just takes the signal level the same way we hear it.

i haven't had time to load that preset yet, but what you're describing shouldn't be happening, if i'm understanding correctly.

King’s X - Jason said:
Normalization could occur post settings. Again some might not like this but to have the option would be nice.
It’s as simple as amp block output = a constant. A similar concept would be normalizing MP3 levels across a library of music. It’s already a thing so should be doable here.
Click to expand...
if i strum the guitar quietly, will it be just as loud as if i play very hard with this normalization? i wouldn't ever want that.
 
Semih Yanyali said:
the volume depends highly on your playing-interaction of guitar and amp. an mp3 is a prerecorded-finalized audio.

i cant think of a way of making what you say work.
Click to expand...
In my simplistic way of looking at it, it would be as simple as signal level leaving the amp block = X.
Yes, there would be some variance according to how you play and the dynamic range of the amp but...
It seems easy enough to set it up so that a chord or note played the same way would result in the same perceived output level. This would eliminate the jarring differences between amps and yet still allow them to behave differently. I think of it like this... what would I do as a programmer of patches to ensure different ones can be used together? Adjust levels and make sure they work well together on stage.

Why can’t we automate that?
 
chris said:
no, because the resulting Level number doesn't/shouldn't matter if it creates the amount of signal you want to hear. the delay doesn't see numbers, that one is +7 and another is -5, "so one is clearly louder by 12dB." it just takes the signal level the same way we hear it.

i haven't had time to load that preset yet, but what you're describing shouldn't be happening, if i'm understanding correctly.


if i strum the guitar quietly, will it be just as loud as if i play very hard with this normalization? i wouldn't ever want that.
Click to expand...
See my post. Of course not... but certainly constants can be normalized.
 
chris said:
can you describe "constant" more? i don't understand how the Axe would know a) when we're giving it a measurement level, and b) how it would know how loud i want it to be.
Click to expand...
Let’s get back to basics. You are auditioning two amps to decide which one to buy/use.

You set the tone and gain stacks and get them matched at a similar volume and compare them.
Easily done right? We’ve all done it. Why can’t the AXE do that leveling for me? This is not a difficult thing to achieve. If you want it louder you adjust output levels. If you don’t want normalization you turn it off.
 
Semih Yanyali said:
responding to my own post:)

when i think more about it i believe actually there is no solution to this. even if the default setting volumes would be programmed closer to each other right after you set an amp the levels will be all over the place. example i dime the gain with plexis but turn it down with morgans...or dime treble and mids with the plexi but turn treble down with a twin reverb...and changing these settings make a huge volume difference with some amps.
Click to expand...
right, and level could be adjusted after the decision to use a particular amp model has been made
 
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