Differing amp model output levels

S

stereotactic

Experienced
Hello, I have the Citrus RV50 on one side and an Energyball on the other, very similar input drive and master volume settings and both have 2 IRs in the cab block. Yet I need to boost the 100w Energyball output level 6.7 more than the 50w Citrus. Anybody know the reason why the 2 models would have such different outputs?
 
stereotactic said:
Hello, I have the Citrus RV50 on one side and an Energyball on the other, very similar input drive and master volume settings and both have 2 IRs in the cab block. Yet I need to boost the 100w Energyball output level 6.7 more than the 50w Citrus. Anybody know the reason why the 2 models would have such different outputs?
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amp design.
 
The same reason a Plexi is louder than a Blues Jr.
This is why the level knob in the amp block exists. Relative amp volumes vary wildly in the unit, as they do in the real world.
 
Thanks guys, I thought that might be the case, and of course the output level does work fir leveling. However, the 2 delay blocks after the amps seem to behave differently, possibly because of this 6db difference. I have the mix controls for both delays controlled by an expression pedal and when I bring up the wet signal, the Energyball/6db boosted side is louder and sounds like it’s clipping, though I can’t see where on the block meters, maybe because they are so small. And while I can balance out the wet signal by lowering the input gain on the delay downstream from the Energyball, I wish I knew why this was happening and I could find where it’s clipping. Any ideas?
 
stereotactic said:
Thanks guys, I thought that might be the case, and of course the output level does work fir leveling. However, the 2 delay blocks after the amps seem to behave differently, possibly because of this 6db difference. I have the mix controls for both delays controlled by an expression pedal and when I bring up the wet signal, the Energyball/6db boosted side is louder and sounds like it’s clipping, though I can’t see where on the block meters, maybe because they are so small. And while I can balance out the wet signal by lowering the input gain on the delay downstream from the Energyball, I wish I knew why this was happening and I could find where it’s clipping. Any ideas?
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Upload the preset.
 
I’ve always thought that in this case the need for absolute accuracy is outweighed by the need to normalize volume across amp models for the default settings. Let the user adjust the MV and Level from there if they need to. But it is really hard to compare amp models when the volume changes so drastically, and I probably almost damaged my monitors doing those comparisons until I started listening for background noise as a warning of impending high volume.
 
greiswig said:
I’ve always thought that in this case the need for absolute accuracy is outweighed by the need to normalize volume across amp models for the default settings. Let the user adjust the MV and Level from there if they need to. But it is really hard to compare amp models when the volume changes so drastically, and I probably almost damaged my monitors doing those comparisons until I started listening for background noise as a warning of impending high volume.
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How would that work? It's the AMP that is the difference, not the Level control.
 
unix-guy said:
How would that work? It's the AMP that is the difference, not the Level control.
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Same way it works in the studio: it’s the output from the mic preamp, not the cabinet SPL.

Normalize means just getting things at the same level for the default settings. So you reset the amp block and the output has been normalized to 0dB no matter what the amp model is.
 
greiswig said:
Same way it works in the studio: it’s the output from the mic preamp, not the cabinet SPL.
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But they have to change the mic preamp input the same way to adjust for different amp loudness. So they are adjusting something.
 
greiswig said:
Same way it works in the studio: it’s the output from the mic preamp, not the cabinet SPL.

Normalize means just getting things at the same level for the default settings. So you reset the amp block and the output has been normalized to 0dB no matter what the amp model is.
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That's exactly what the Level control is for...
 
chris said:
I’ll try to look tonight after my gig.
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Thanks, but I have an update:

I dialed in the tone through my studio monitors, but my live set up involves a matrix power amp and some 4x12s. Obviously I set the power amp setting for the solid-state amp and cabinets and then to my amusement found that the crackle/distortion on the energyball right side delay of the signal chain was gone. Which has me wondering if it had anything to do with the cab block, which of course is not involved in the signal chain with the SS output setting...
 
stereotactic said:
Thanks, but I have an update:

I dialed in the tone through my studio monitors, but my live set up involves a matrix power amp and some 4x12s. Obviously I set the power amp setting for the solid-state amp and cabinets and then to my amusement found that the crackle/distortion on the energyball right side delay of the signal chain was gone. Which has me wondering if it had anything to do with the cab block, which of course is not involved in the signal chain with the SS output setting...
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Check the Preamp tab of your cab block... Possible you have Drive and/or Saturation turned up?
 
unix-guy said:
Check the Preamp tab of your cab block... Possible you have Drive and/or Saturation turned up?
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I did, no, the settings are very mild. I did see that there was something in the latest firmware about the cab air volume setting not doing something it was supposed to, not sure if it was related...
 
unix-guy said:
That's exactly what the Level control is for...
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Yeah, I know. I guess what I’m saying is that there is a problem: relative output differences that don’t really have to be there. It’s accurate, but not particularly useful. When I’m comparing amps, I don’t need to be reminded that if all the settings at the board are the same, a mic’d Plexi is going to be a lot louder than a Champ. To compare the sounds, I would adjust things to where I’m hearing them both at about 80dB in the studio.

We have a magic box. Why can’t it make that adjustment for us? There are two ways that i could see to do it: make 5.0 on the level control have the same output at default settings regardless of amp model, or change the default setting of the level control so the same thing happens.

I just don’t see the point of replicating the loudness differences between amps when it is the tone and consistent volume in the mix that is the ultimate goal.
 
chris said:
But they have to change the mic preamp input the same way to adjust for different amp loudness. So they are adjusting something.
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That’s my point: they have to. Why should we? At least at the default settings. I mean, the FAS team goes to the trouble of getting their presets at close to the same relative volume for the same reason.
 
greiswig said:
That’s my point: they have to. Why should we? At least at the default settings. I mean, the FAS team goes to the trouble of getting their presets at close to the same relative volume for the same reason.
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they model the amps accurately. to normalize volume would not be accurate and an extra step.
greiswig said:
make 5.0 on the level control have the same output at default settings regardless of amp model, or change the default setting of the level control so the same thing happens.
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at what gain setting though? the gain reacts differently on different models, so if the volume is normalized, the amp wouldn't react as it does on the real thing.
 
greiswig said:
Yeah, I know. I guess what I’m saying is that there is a problem: relative output differences that don’t really have to be there. It’s accurate, but not particularly useful. When I’m comparing amps, I don’t need to be reminded that if all the settings at the board are the same, a mic’d Plexi is going to be a lot louder than a Champ. To compare the sounds, I would adjust things to where I’m hearing them both at about 80dB in the studio.

We have a magic box. Why can’t it make that adjustment for us? There are two ways that i could see to do it: make 5.0 on the level control have the same output at default settings regardless of amp model, or change the default setting of the level control so the same thing happens.

I just don’t see the point of replicating the loudness differences between amps when it is the tone and consistent volume in the mix that is the ultimate goal.
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I've also mentioned this before when I was using my AxerFx II. A real PIA when auditioning different amp models. If it's all in the name of accuracy, i.e a Plexi is louder than a Princeton, then why f.ex. is a Deluxe Verb model louder than a Dirty Shirley or Div13? And what we're talking about is relative "Level" or "loudness" at reset value. I'm not an amp designer or a programmer so I've accepted this as a design reality I have to live with and I'm ok with it but it would be nice. Fight the good fight @greiswig !!
 
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