Will we see improvements/new tech regarding speaker cabinets?

JoeyBTL

JoeyBTL

Inspired
It is great to see the III coming out with so much more room for activities and improvements all around. I know that there will be basically Cab Lab within the unit itself, which is great, but I'm curious about anyones thoughts on there being a push forward with the speaker cabinet part of this equation. As we all know, the CAB makes a huge difference in your sound and with the III having so much power, it could mean using something other than "just" IRs.

It seems that the hype around the Universal Audio Ox keeps building and with good reason because it sounds very good in pretty much every video I've seen. I know IRs are great and can sound extremely close to a mic'd up cab but I have to feel like its not as good as it could be sometimes. For the same reason, I prefer the Axe over say a Kemper. Wouldn't you say an IR is a snapshot of that setup the way a profile is a snapshot of an amp rig? Modeling something, as the Axe does, is much less static and can change with the player because it mimics how an actual amp functions and reacts, not just a picture of its EQ curve (I know, not exactly news to all of you). Maybe I just don't know quite enough about it but I've always had trouble wrapping my head around how an IR can capture all the ways a speaker produces sound at different volumes and all the variables involved with what is going into that speaker in the first place to make the sound come out of the other end. I would think this is important for someone who plays dynamically and knows that a speaker pumping out a power chord coming from a humbucker cranked to 10 is different than that same guitar in a split coil position with the volume knob at 3.

I know a lot of you are aware of the UA Ox and have seen it mentioned it quite a few times already but for those that don't know, I'm including Shawn Tubbs' review of it. I would love to see this type of modeling get added into the Axe:



I love my Axe Fx 2 and can already get fantastic sounds out of it so I'm not just complaining about IRs but I look forward to all the new possibilities the III can bring!
 
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I'm at a place where I just can't imagine much more growth in accuracy of the amp models themselves. My AxeFx even hums like the modeled amps with the single coils and power amp settings I use, lol. We are LONG past getting the models to all be usable in the same situations as the "real" amps, at this point Cliff and co are just bridging the gap for bragging rights. It's great to see the drive for excellence here, the man is definitely committed to satisfying himself with his product even if 98% of his consumer community is already content.

The dynamic speaker modeling methods really seem to be the new way forward IMO. Wouldn't be surprised if Fractal worked on a device capable of this as a separate physical unit, because my gut says you'd have to have committed to the dynamic approach while you were spec'ing your device. Imagine what fractal could do with component level modeling... yes please...
 
chris said:
How is that different than what an IR does? I skimmed the video but I don’t understand yet. I’m unfamiliar with what “modeling the whole cab” means.
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I watched the video but didn't catch the 'modeling whole cab' part. Is that near the beginning?
 
So the OX uses 'modeling' of some kind.​

There's another way to go, beyond basic IR to dynamic IR - it's pretty straight forward but, it's a serious data hog, that goes up as the 'articulation' of dynamics goes up. But it's essentially an array of IRs that can serve up an IR of the speaker captured at whatever instantaneous power level the speaker is being driven at by the player. Maybe one of those in a AFX Block. :)
 
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1. Haven't a lot of the recent firmware improvements been related to speaker dynamics/drive/compression? Would be interested in hearing what Cliff thinks about how much deeper the speaker and cab modeling can still go.

2. "the hype around the Universal Audio Ox keeps building and with good reason because it sounds very good". Keep in mind many YouTubers are paid to feature gear. There is no doubt a bunch of money that Universal Audio's marketing team is spending on building the hype. You are experiencing a product launch and advertising campaign, not a genuine embracing of the OX by ordinary musicians spending their own money on it.
 
BillyZeppa said:
I watched the video but didn't catch the 'modeling whole cab' part. Is that near the beginning?
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Around 7 minutes. Listening again he said “complete model of the whole speaker” in reference to “dynamic modeling.” But I still don’t know what that means. What in a speaker is changing as we play?

I really wish he didn’t have delay on the guitar. I can’t tell what the room mic is doing.

It seems the only “dynamic modeling” was the Speaker Drive knob, that adds more harmonics and a more compressed sound. Don’t we already have this?
 
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JoeyBTL said:
a push forward with the speaker cabinet part of this equation
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:) Would be nice - who knows what the future holds...I do remember a post some time ago (maybe 12 months ago) where cliff stated he thinks he has found the secret or knows the reason to the whole "cab in room" myth busted - or something to that effect. It was near the time of the announcement for the Fractal LB (load box) Which is yet to be released.
I'm hoping there is going to be some sort of future announcement with the LB and how it is designed to marry or interact directly with the new technology in the 3.... It would be fantastic for the product going forward.
The back of my mind though has some reservations, because the top end of Fractal products linking up doesn't have the form or history for being fully compatible or harmonious (Ax8 & AXe FX - even the presets dont interchange and has needed a third party developer to make his own program to make the basic blocks import/export - Fractool)
 
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wh10 said:
1. Haven't a lot of the recent firmware improvements been related to speaker dynamics/drive/compression? Would be interested in hearing what Cliff thinks about how much deeper the speaker and cab modeling can still go.
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At a broader level, I would love to get a sense of what @FractalAudio thinks are the additional areas of potential and improvement in the overall modelling of guitar/bass tone. Not necessarily a commitment to building out those areas, but where he thinks room for improvements exists.
 
chris said:
Around 7 minutes. Listening again he said “complete model of the whole speaker” in reference to “dynamic modeling.” But I still don’t know what that means. What in a speaker is changing as we play?

I really wish he didn’t have delay on the guitar. I can’t tell what the room mic is doing.

It seems the only “dynamic modeling” was the Speaker Drive knob, that adds more harmonics and a more compressed sound. Don’t we already have this?
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That's the Speaker Drive, and speaker comp controls, right? UAD suggests the OX emulates 'cone cry', which I take to be the point where the speaker goes bad, or good as the case may be.

I have found that pushing a speaker or cab far enough to hear the 'break down', just makes it softer sounding, and not in a good way, more of an unstable way, but sometimes the top can sound brighter in an interesting way - I guess because the speaker is sharply clipping at a phase in the over load. I find the sweet spot for speaker 'break up' is fairly narrow, and I don't like the affect on tone when audible on recordings.

Having said that, this UAD OX looks like a great tool, and a no brainer to look at for anyone looking for a hotplate.
 
chris said:
Listening again he said “complete model of the whole speaker” in reference to “dynamic modeling.” But I still don’t know what that means.
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So far, they've avoided actually saying what it means. Maybe it's something new and cool, but until they explain further, I'm taking it as marketing lingo.
 
wh10 said:
2. "the hype around the Universal Audio Ox keeps building and with good reason because it sounds very good". Keep in mind many YouTubers are paid to feature gear. There is no doubt a bunch of money that Universal Audio's marketing team is spending on building the hype. You are experiencing a product launch and advertising campaign, not a genuine embracing of the OX by ordinary musicians spending their own money on it.
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Yea I always take that into account. But it seems consistent between all the videos I watched at least.

chris said:
What in a speaker is changing as we play?
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I'm certainly not an expert at this stuff and I wish I understood exactly how IRs work better but doesn't it make sense that a speaker and whats going on in the room and with the cab reacts differently when you are playing a chord through a clean channel versus power chords on a lot of gain?

BillyZeppa said:
UAD suggests the OX emulates 'cone cry', which I take to be the point where the speaker goes bad, or good as the case may be.
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Rex said:
So far, they've avoided actually saying what it means. Maybe it's something new and cool, but until they explain further, I'm taking it as marketing lingo.
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Yea I know, I hear a lot of marketing lingo with how some of these guys have been talking but with this video he explains it a bit at around the 5:00 mark. There is also a video of him at the same show explaining it to the Sweetwater guy.

 
WELL, hopefully we don’t have long to wait until Cliff unveils his competition to the OX and see how it compares/differs...as far as Universal Audio goes, of course they have never been averse to flashy hype, but for the most part their products have justified the glitz , and the probability that longtime FAS contributor and tone king James Santiago has been intrinsically involved with the OX lends it yet more credibility. IMO.
 
To echo the sentiments of others, I agree that “component level Modeling” of speakers in cabinets ( as is currently done in amplifier block) seems like a logical evolution of guitar cabinet emulation.

That being said, I don’t have the knowledge or experience to know if that is a viable technological pathway for us. Certainly @FractalAudio could opine on the feasibility of such technology, however if it is something he is working on, we often don’t get detailed technology plans due to IP concerns. However any insights along these lines would be greatly appreciated.
 
To me, this sounds like an array of impulse responses that are mixed on the fly.

Another company approached me about shooting such files for their software using a very specific methodology that I am not at liberty to discuss.

When the organization could not come across with a legal document that clearly stated who owned the intellectual property for those recorded files used in the array and where rights would revert should the company dissolve, go bankrupt, or be sold, I declined offering files in such a format. They also did not come across with sales projections, which would be important to know considering the gargantuan amount of work on my part per cab to generate what they wanted.
 
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