Why some amps initially sound bad?

barhrecords said:
If there was a builtin function to create new preset with just amp and cab, with some predetermined by FAS "good" settings, I can't see how it would be worse than the tone stack at noon and the 1x6 oval IR.
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That's basically what a lot of the stock presets are, however the original discussion pertained to default amp settings.
 
I've gotta say that I dig the "get off my lawn" vibe. ;)

You and I are of like mind (well, partly... I've never had an interest in any PPV event :)).

I started playing guitar (again, after a twenty-year layoff) eighteen years ago. For about a month, I rehashed what I had learned as a kid, realized that it was freaking boring and decided to expand my musical horizons. Roughly *three* years ago, everything started to click for me: completely comfortable with my gear; feeling confident as an improviser; recording consistently good material with my trio; etc. Things have been *really* good for me, musically and artistically, for the past three years.

Now, roll back through the prior fifteen years. I kept notes, but I won't bore y'all with the details. That was fifteen years of false starts and incremental improvements. The only thing that kept me from running in circles, I think, was that I kept notes and lists and a journal and lots of recordings. During those fifteen years I flipped ridiculous amounts of gear, thought - perhaps *hundreds* of times - that I had finally perfected my rig, only to notice something *else* that needed attention. Man, I turned a *lot* of dials...

But going beyond the whole motivation thing, there's a really good reason why no one, not even Cliff himself (despite his vaunted power of omniscience), can program a preset that'll just sound "right" without any adjustment. As others have mentioned, differences in ancillary gear, technique and environment can exert a considerable effect on how one experiences a preset.

There is no pushbutton transmission of music. You wanna find the sound in your head, you have to learn a lot (which means making a lot of mistakes) and figure out how your instrument, your gear, your technique, even your collaborators need to work together to get the sound you want to hear.

Henry Juskiewicz gave an interview five or so years ago in which he postulated the marriage of AI and guitars (specifically, Gibson guitars) to create an instrument that makes the sounds its player *had intended to make*. How would they even do that? Think about it: was it my intent to play, say, "Shine on You Crazy Diamond" without mistakes, or was I trying to play a free jazz number that just happened to tickle some of the same harmonic, melodic and rhythmic markers found in SoYCD? It's literally the same problem as the mythical "right sounding" preset, just at a different point in the signal chain.


lqdsnddist said:
Why shouldn't we blame the user ?

Why should the user have a great tone just handed to them ?

Why shouldn't the user have to put in a little effort tweaking and actually LEARNING how to dial in a amp and then be rewarded with a subjectively great tone ?


... lots of great stuff trimmed ...
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If I'm touring through amps on the AFX/AX8 and an amp sounds outright 'bad', I find it's the just the wrong IR and/or the amp sometimes works better with either a humbucker or single coil.

For me, the defaults at noon are perfect; I generally match an IR to sound decent with the controls set that way and go from there as I audition amps and fiddle around. I start with the treble control (after tweaking Drive/Master) as it has a huge affect on the entire voicing of the tone stack in most amps.

IMO it's worth taking your time to really play with the basic settings on any amp in the AFX, as you would if the real thing was in front of you.

Many amps will only give up their secrets when you find their idiosyncrasies by spending time with it...
 
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Look no one said that no tweaking would not need to be done with what I name, Optimized Amp Settings. Of course. But if an amp sounds best, generally, with a maxed master....then max it from get go. When trying out amps, a lot of them sound woolly from start and I just don't feel it;s a best foot forward. Yes learn to dial amps in and select good cabs and every guitar is different...but my original post still stands. Cliff can do what he wants, and he is the man with a mission. Just an idea I think would let amp models shine more.
 
Johan Allard said:
I totally agree with the OP. I think the issue is easy to see by reading posts like this:



Cliff is obviously a genius. What he's created with the Axe Fx family is to me truly staggering and I'm grateful for having a product like the Axe Fx 2 and more recently the Ax8 to play with. But when I see posts like the quoted one I am also totally baffled at basically blaming customers for not knowing how to use the product.

Defaults are incredibly powerful and by having decent default values, the ease of use would be massively enhanced, with more happy customers as a result and less need for posts like the quoted one. And for those that argue that "not everyone will like the same thing" – that's always going to be true regardless of setting. And by having a base tone that will appeal to as many people as possible it would be a much better starting point than having everything at noon. Also, how much more useful and productive would it be if we instead argued about what the default value should be on a Fender Twin to appeal to as many people as possible rather than just throw out the old "use your ears man" and having lots of amp model be much worse than they could (should) be as a default.

Nothing is ever going to be perfect and it seems that the argument against different default values than noon really comes down to since it's not going to be perfect for everyone, its a complete waste of effort trying to make it better for many.
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Personally I'm no fan of the you need better monitors, and don't use headphones type replies since if I cannot get those to sound OK it's a dialing thing.

There is a huge amount if user error when it comes to gear. Particularly dialing it. It takes about 3 seconds to dial an amp in once you know in your head what it should sound like.
When hoping that amps are some kinda magic tonal fix it and worst hoping that some one else's presets will work is when inexperience screams "I want to be a contender"
In that respect ID be pretty damn cranky as a designer.
 
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Tremonti said:
Look no one said that no tweaking would not need to be done with what I name, Optimized Amp Settings. Of course. But if an amp sounds best, generally, with a maxed master....then max it from get go. When trying out amps, a lot of them sound woolly from start and I just don't feel it;s a best foot forward. Yes learn to dial amps in and select good cabs and every guitar is different...but my original post still stands. Cliff can do what he wants, and he is the man with a mission. Just an idea I think would let amp models shine more.
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Which amp sounds best with dimed master. Name one
 
Tremonti said:
Yes learn to dial amps in and select good cabs and every guitar is different...but my original post still stands.
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If cabs, pickups and preference can make a huge difference, how can your original point possibly still stand? Seriously. When you factor those in, there's simply no universal amp setting that most people can agree is good.
 
Jason Scott said:
If cabs, pickups and preference can make a huge difference, how can your original point possibly still stand? Seriously. When you factor those in, there's simply no universal amp setting that most people can agree is good.
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Right.

So best to start with default settings that almost everyone agrees are not good (for some amps).
 
barhrecords said:
Right.

So best to start with default settings that almost everyone agrees are not good (for some amps).
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Everyone does not agree that the default settings suck. Cabs, guitar, and preferences are the prime determinant. The default settings might sound far better than cranking up the bass or lowering the mid-range depending on the cab. Once you factor in cabs, there's absolutely no universally agreed upon amp setting that's better than the default. None. Zero. Zilch.
 
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Defaults at noon have nothing to do with tone. It's done because it makes it equally convenient to tweak up or down as needed. It's a neutral starting point in terms of the knobs' range of adjustment. From a user interface perspective, that is the most efficient default. Tone is completely subjective and up to the user to decide and dial in.
 
Why anyone would expect amp defaults to sound good to their ear right out of the gate, I don't know.
 
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Ed DeGenaro said:
Personally I'm no fan if the you need better monitors, and don't use headphones type replies since if I can get those to sound OK it's a dialing thing.

There is a huge amount if user error when it comes to gear. Particularly dialing it. It takes about 3 seconds to dial an amp in once you know in your head what it should sound like.
When hoping that amps are some kinda magic tonal fix it and worst hoping that some one else's presets will work is when inexperience screams "I want to be a contender"
In that respect ID be pretty damn cranky as a designer.
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I recently "upgraded" my KRK rp6 g2 with Yamaha hs7. They were clearer and more midrange focused with much controlled bass but I couldn't get on with them. They sounded harsh and were poorly shielded. I sold them yesterday losing over half of the money I paid for them just for convenience sake.
I then decided to squash my 130hz room mode using the global EQ on the Axe fx for the first time. Obviously I'll disable it when recording but seems to have worked wonders!

Didn't need them speakers after all. Live and learn.
 
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Tremonti said:
Look no one said that no tweaking would not need to be done with what I name, Optimized Amp Settings.
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There are so many variables that, coupled with subjective taste, determining universal optimized settings would likely be a somewhat futile endeavor. The closest thing to that currently would be the factory presets, and look how widely the opinions on them vary.

If you'd have to tweak Optimized Amp Settings anyway (which won't be optimized universally for everyone), you might as well have the defaults starting at noon simply as a starting point and go from there.

I definitely get where your coming from, but don't think a one-size-fits-all starting point for any particular amp would ultimately work. Too many variables...
 
Ed DeGenaro said:
seriously? models where the master defaults to 10 since that's equal to the real deal is the master dimed to you...that IS reaching...
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if you say so, i was just giving an example of amps in the Ae that sound best with the master volume dimed.
 
Ed DeGenaro said:
Which amp sounds best with dimed master. Name one
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The Soldano clean channel takes on a whole new dimension when diming MV.

It's something you could not do IRL with the Soldano clean channel unless you wanted to get fined for disturbing the peace, but in the Fractal it sounds glorious.
 
Non-master volume amps already default with the master at 10.

Also, folks were taking about scrolling through the list and some sounding bad. When changing amp models, the gain, treble, middle, and bass control settings are not changed. The advanced parameters reset, but most of the basic controls are left alone. It's only when you manually reset the block or first insert an amp block in a new preset do you see the default all-noon settings.
 
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