Just can't get FRFR vs amp/cab to work for me?

Tremonti

Tremonti

Fractal Fanatic
Tried CLR and recently used an EV powered monitor(ZLX12P). Thinking the FRFR just isn't me. Throwing in the cabinet parameters, in addition to the amp ones, is daunting and too many variables and options. Spent hours really fine tuning and reading then brought to practice and just left me "mehh". I tweak at rehearsal volume with latest firmware 20. I know tweaking at home and then bring to practice with band are 2 different things, but this was more than that. Even bought 3 different cab packs!

I know it's preference...just amazed so many love this route? Wasn't full and was quite thin. So many parameters to twiddle with made it quite the chore to do at home, let alone try and re-do on the fly at rehearsal.
 
If you really just prefer the sound of a cab, then I would stick with it.

I like FRFR for the smaller cartage and stage footprint. I sing and needed to bring a powered wedge anyway. So using FRFR for the Fractal made sense for me.

Early on I used a Crown power amp -> guitar cab. And in some ways really like the simplicity of presets and the tone / playing experience. But it ends up being too much to load in and out for my current gigs.

It took me quite a while to find the IR's that could compare to real cabs. I could play tons of IR's and be okay with the shows. But if you want to find IR's that really get close to your cab, it takes time.

I stopped messing with tons of tweaks when I the IR's that I liked.
 
Both have their pros and cons. Guitar speakers can sound ice picky on axis but normally we don't listen to them that way. I think people that enjoy frfr have trained their ears to get used to it. That's why someone like Larry Mitchell who is used to monitoring with frfr from doing countless recording gigs loves it and can even use the house pa.

I feel like it has taken me a few years to get used to the frfr sound but still not completely comfortable. To ease into it you can run both and it sounds big but it's a lot to carry around. To me the xitone sounds a bit hybrid between guitar speaker and frfr and sounded great for blues and country but when I tried tones that were a little more harmonically rich like zztop I had trouble cutting thru. I have the clr now but I haven't gigged enough to know if it's the answer.

So to sum up either go back to traditional or try xitone or start practicing with frfr at home to get your ears accustomed to it and that can just be studio monitors for now.
 
I know see a lot of posts of guys who feel like this. I don't know, because I've never played my axe through my cabs. (The only SS power amp I have is a crown XTI4002, and I think it's too big or I would try it.) I have a couple of good heads (Mesa, Carvin) but don't feel like messing with it. I played through combos and 4x12 half stacks for years. I might be missing something. BUT... I don't feel like I am. I even saw a post from FA (either Matt of Cliff) that said they actually prefer a 4x12 cab. Here is my question for you:

My thought is that at a gig, the audience (most of them anyway) are not going to hear my cab. They are going to hear the PA mains. I don't like not knowing how my cab tone translates to FOH, and if I am really sounding good. With the AXE, I actually listen to my tones at practice through our PA mains (QSC 3 ways) and get a solid idea of what it's like. So for guys who really "need the cab", what's it about? Is it just the stage sound? Or is it more for practice and personal jamming?

I had a friend tell me he doesn't play as well without the "feel". I don't get it. My CLR's punch, and give me a ton of feel. I want to understand more of what you think is missing (In case I'm missing it too and don't know it.)
 
I hear you Tremonti. I've been going through the same thing for the last 6 months at rehearsals. I've bought 10 cab packs. I just gave up and brought my FRFR powered speakers home last week.
 
a single speaker (or even a pair) will never replace the physical movement of air/sound that a 4x12 guitar cabinet can. FRFR speakers can sound like 4x12 cabs, but they can't feel like them.

many people who successfully use FRFR setups don't need the loudness or air-push/feel of a 4x12 (or whatever) guitar cab, and even when they did use a real guitar cab, they didn't turn up so loud for that feel. so the transition was easy.

some people just need that cab feel to play. if so, use a cab.

as for the settings in the cab block, etc., you should honestly be able to load a cab type, and maybe change the Low and High cuts and be done. if you are tweaking way beyond that, then it usually is someone being unfamiliar with how to EQ a PA speaker for the intended usage. buying an axe-fx doesn't suddenly transform someone into an audio engineer, and i haven't read anywhere that says "Axe-Fx to any PA speaker instantly sounds perfect." :)

if after 3 or 10 cab packs you can't get what you need, perhaps there is something in addition to the sound that you are missing. it just may be that feel provided only by loud guitar cabs next to you.

FRFR speakers typically have enhanced Low and High frequencies. these do not play well at all with electric guitar tones, so they have to be EQ'd out. you can use the Global EQ to do this, or do it on the preset level. a guitar cab was designed for... wait for it... guitar, so it naturally sounds great without much work.
 
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I wonder, is it the the tone of FRFR that you do not like or the fact that you are use to speakers pushing air behind you and are now missing that? From my own experience my tones with FRFR are great. But I also go in ear and let the PA do all the work for me. I could never get any of my tube amps loud enough to miss a cab pushing air at my back. I have a EV ZLX 12 that is on the floor next to me that I use to get feedback live. But as far as tone go's my XL going FRFR is fantastic.
 
If I could get the sound I hear when I'm sitting at my computer and listening thru Bose computer speakers to come in a larger, FRFR solution, I'd be happy as a clam. I'm tried a few different speakers (not all of them mind you) and for whatever reason, kept me missing something.

I will say that anything clean to bluesy always sounded great. The hard part was when I was playing hard rock and metal stuff. Just had a flat tone that was mid heavy. I haven't given up yet though on FRFR. The newer IRs sound phenomenal and Cliff keeps adding magic to the Axefx.
 
Since it's just not working for you, I will give you 50 dollars for your CLR cab. (I can't believe "someone else" didn't make a ridiculous offer like this already.)

Tremonti said:
Tried CLR and recently used an EV powered monitor(ZLX12P). Thinking the FRFR just isn't me. Throwing in the cabinet parameters, in addition to the amp ones, is daunting and too many variables and options. Spent hours really fine tuning and reading then brought to practice and just left me "mehh". I tweak at rehearsal volume with latest firmware 20. I know tweaking at home and then bring to practice with band are 2 different things, but this was more than that. Even bought 3 different cab packs!

I know it's preference...just amazed so many love this route? Wasn't full and was quite thin. So many parameters to twiddle with made it quite the chore to do at home, let alone try and re-do on the fly at rehearsal.
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try the stock TV cabs for a start. i find those sound closer to the amp in the room tone that i'm used to. also, roll off some high end if you still can't find happiness. guitar cabinets just don't reproduce those high frequencies that full range cabinets do.

the other thing that i find is a real big help is to setup a preset with everything above 5k rolled off, then leave the rig alone and take a break for awhile. when you come back and hear the new preset your ears should be fresh and ready to open up the highs slightly if needed. bottom line is that once your ears hear a bright preset it takes awhile to clear that out of your mind/ears. start with a really dark preset before listening to anything else.

this is what works for me. i have three 4-12 cabs for sale.....so i'm full range all the way now.
 
ChrisCG said:
I wonder, is it the the tone of FRFR that you do not like or the fact that you are use to speakers pushing air behind you and are now missing that? From my own experience my tones with FRFR are great. But I also go in ear and let the PA do all the work for me. I could never get any of my tube amps loud enough to miss a cab pushing air at my back. I have a EV ZLX 12 that is on the floor next to me that I use to get feedback live. But as far as tone go's my XL going FRFR is fantastic.
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It's both the sterile-ness and the lack of air moving or oomphing...I don't play metal either! Sterile-ness is like EMG pickups versus passive.....it's a taste thing...I probably just don't like it and that's my taste.
 
you know each their own but I am suprised by this

I'm moving over from my recto with cab to my XL through a QSC k12 and after reading allot of similair views I expected to hate it but I like it allot . its early days for me with only a few rehreasals under my belt this way but we are a loud band and I feel I can hear myself better with the qsc than I could with my recto . and the in the room thing I just dont get. it feels in the room to me when its cranking ??

but life is too short and gear too expensive to persit with something you dont dig. maybe your just an amp/cab guy
 
Good for you! Move on... I personally liked the frfr route with very little tweaking and saw what it could do, but there is Soul in a regular cab I dig more!
Now I combine them!
Output1 is frfr, output2 is reg cab. I love this setup and can tune in any stage, any room, any guitar... At least give this a try before you retire your frfr ideas!


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My ham-fisted approach (for saturated tones) is cut the highs to around 14kHz to 12kHz, cut the lows around 55Hz down to 42Hz, add motor drive round 2.88 to 4, and speaker drive from 2 to 4 and I get pretty decent results through some Mackie HR824s which are rather peaked around 1k-1.8k (I forget exactly, I've been out of the game a good while).

And by ham-fisted, I mean I don't even listen for a change - I just start chopping right away (guitars don't give you much at the extremes I find). I pay more attention to the 'Motor Drive' and 'Speaker Drive' than the others by far. I tend to add about 3.3-3.7 for the 'Dynamic Depth' as a default setting and adjust the *real* 'Depth' and then 'Bass' to get rid of mud. Not really a science yet - it's still FUN!
 
My FRFR more than fills the room with sound.

"thin" isn't the word that comes to mind it comes to my XiTone active wedge.

Guitarist are a strange lot though..... with their apparent need for hearing destroying volume just for their own enjoyment and ability to feel "motivated"

Musician's of tons of other modalities always seem to be able to work around this need. Tons of top EDM tracks are likely made monitoring through a pair of headphones at 3am, but guitarist, the strange beast they/we are, seem to be incapable of playing a lick if its not through a 4x12 cabinet.

I'm certainly not the pot calling the kettle black mind you. In my teen years and 20's I have a 4x12 cab in my bedroom. Mattress on the floor, some milk crate "furniture" and a 4x12 half stack which I had to play cranked all the time... Missing a fair bit of hearing due to hours and hours spend each day standing in front of that cab jamming.

To each his or her own, but I'd advise anyone with most of their residual hearing to try to conserve it. You miss it when its gone way more than you miss each "chug" on the low E being loud enough to rattle your bowels.
 
To be heard at all over our drummer I have to be loud. I played just as loud through my FRFR powered speakers as I did with my real amps, so the difference in loudness was not the issue. I was definitely moving some air. I tried using the powered cabs on their side like monitors, standing straight up but on the floor, and on poles behind me on either side of the drummer. It sounded the best to me on the poles. At the volume we play it was always easy to get harmonic feedback with real amps just by turning toward the amp. I could not get that kind of feedback at all playing though powered PA cabs, even when aiming my guitar right at them and walking right up to them. I have a recording studio and have no problem making the Axe FXII sound great on recordings. After 6 months of trying to use the Axe FXII and FRFR with the band I have given up, for now at least. I experienced pretty much the same issues as Tremonti. I may try using the Axe FXII with a stereo power amp and a couple of 4x12 cabs at some point. For now I'm going back to using real amps and the Axe FXII for effects only live with the band like Steve Vai does, and using the Axe FXII in the studio.
 
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