Modes, help a theory idiot

If you are playing an E drone note, and play an E Lydian pattern on top of it without changing the fingering pattern and shifting down a whole step, with E drone continuing you are now playing E Mixolydian, Slide the pattern up an whole step from where you started and you are playing E Phrygian. It can be built into something a lot more complex but this an easy way to shred with modes. If you have more than the underlying root note (chords) it limits this approach dramatically. Players like Andy Timmons and others that just have drums and bass have much more freedom choosing mode or scale flavors in their compositions because you have many more options to choose from when soloing over a single note and not chords.
 
Asking about modes before knowing intervals and chord structures is putting the cart before the horse. Like anything in music, it's a psychological effect.

EDIT: What I mean is that structurally they are made from other scales. This is absolutely NOT the way to think about or practice them. If you do, they will sound no different to their parent major or minor scale. The best way I have found is to practice them over a single drone note that is unchanging (Pitch axis) or over chord progressions that have a different tonal centre than their parent major or minor scale.

For example: Practice A Dorian over an Am - D chord progression. DO NOT hit the G major chord, except as a momentary passing chord while resolving to the Am. There are similar chord progressions in existence for every mode, even Locrian.

Each mode has a parent PARALLEL major or minor scale. A dorian's closest parallel scale is A natural minor. So, play A natural minor a few times to tune your ear to it, and then play A dorian. You will immediately notice the more upbeat sound of the major 6th interval.... along with this recognition will come the knowledge that you've heard it before. Every mode has a parallel major or minor, even Locrian. Tune your ear to these first before delving into phrygian dominant or any other more outlandish mode.

Hope that helps. :)
 
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symphx said:
... Id love some basic advice of playing with theory for rock and metal type leads, that stay in key/dont miss notes ...
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I started out learning scales/modes. I practiced daily racing against a metronome. I got good at it, but they sounded like... scales. ugh.
20 Years later I started taking lessons again. I was having a terrible time playing through chord/key changes and needed to fix it. The teacher I had gave me one very simple piece of advice that totally changed my perspective and playing. He said...

When the chord changes, play a note that's in the new chord.
 
Rich G. said:
When the chord changes, play a note that's in the new chord.
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Yes! That's another reason to know how the chords are built by stacking. As someone who has always been a very melodic player, that is at the core of it. Playing chord tones is a great way to approach it. Then you can use the other notes of the scale to connect the chord tones.

But that's also a simplified approach. And for metal, where the chords are mostly root-5 it doesn't give you a lot of note choices. But if you are playing a root-5 E in, say E minor, knowing that diatonically the underlying chord is E minor you can play the root, minor 3rd and the 5 (E, G, B). You can extend the chord further to the minor 7 which adds the D note.

For those playing along at home: E G B D are the notes that make up the Emin7 chord, and the Emin7 arpeggio (which is just the notes of chord played one at a time). These are all chord tones that will sound great over an E root-5, or Emin or Emin7.





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unix-guy said:
Yes! That's another reason to know how the chords are built by stacking. As someone who has always been a very melodic player, that is at the core of it. Playing chord tones is a great way to approach it. Then you can use the other notes of the scale to connect the chord tones.
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The song that teacher had me analyze extensively and solo over was Willie Nelson's "All Of Me". Coming from a hair metal background, this was completely foreign to me. It really forced me to drop the notion of staying within a key/mode and concentrate on playing melodically.
 
At the beginning I didn't bother with the tones and the theory behind it. I've just ran the 7 scales through the neck, one by one, from 3. fret to the 12 and back to practice alternate picking. Soon I started using those scales in my solo improvisations. The trick I used and that worked for me was to find one matching tone (not the root one necessarily) and then 2 successive tones on the same string (usually 3. or 4. string) anywhere on the fretboard using my ears that sounded well in the context. These 3 tones in this formation are usually a part of 1 or 2 of those 7 scales in that very position, if you can visualize them. Probably both scales will work. If I also know which scale preceds and which one follows (you just have to know that these scales are connected in certain order), than I don't have to play it only vertically and I can expand my solo. So even without knowing theory, if you learn those 7 and visualize them, you can always find a peace of a scale on the fretboard and build on further on it.

Another approach is to find where my preferred scales lie in relation to the mostly used pentatonic scales. If I play E blues pentatonic from 12. fret, I tend to use Ionian scale beginning from the root tone on the 10. fret, for example.
 
Here's another theory about modes and theory. Who cares? Knowing all the scales, modes etc. can't hurt, but I think of it more simply. Which may explain my very simple playing. LOL

If I ever start thinking about scales and modes, it will sound like I'm practicing a scale and mode lesson to my ears. I know smart guys can think that way and still sound musical, but it never clicks for me.

Here's how I approach it. You only have 12 notes to choose from, so learn what each of those notes sound like against whatever is going on underneath you.

If I play a B note over a CMAJ9 chord, I know it will sound pretty much like it belongs there, but If I play that same B note against a C7 chord, or a Cm6, t will sound like I made a mistake. I know that's a pretty simplistic approach to music, but it works for me.

I guess it all depends on what type of music you are playing. If you're the guitar player in a three piece band (drums/bass/guitar) ala ZZ Top, Cream, Van Halen, etc. when you are soloing with nothing but a bass line behind you, you can pretty much play any note for a second and sound like you know what your'e doing. If you're playing a classical sounding piece, with an orchestra behind you, and playing on top of an Ab/D chord you may have to be more careful with your note choices.
 
In western music there are twelve tones.

When two or more notes are played at the same time they have an effect on the listener.

What notes you choose is typically based on what effect you are trying to create.

Music theory is a way of explaining and segregating these effects into patterns.

For some musicians, learning music theory is a way of internalizing these patterns so the musician can create a specific effect of the listener via the music.

In a simplified way, it boils down to tension and release. The ebb and flow of the notes you are playing create and release tension based on the choices. E.g. a note not in the chord, key, scale of the rest of the instruments creates tension. Notes in key create release.

I don't think music theory is for everyone though. It can be cool to open up your mind to new things, just for inspiration though.

In regards to modes, I personally see them more about chords and chord progressions than I do about soloing. Knowing what scale / mode a chord progression comes from would let you decide if you want to play in scale or out for example.
 
If you know the notes just add the landing notes to your existing licks to create new sounds and then create that in your existing patterns of choice.

For example in A Minor if you want a Dorian sound add the F sharp (Major 6) instead of F (Minor 6) to all your licks in that key. Hit the A string and play landing on F sharp at the end of your licks to hear the feel.

You like Phrygian so lets say in E Minor add F (Flat 2) instead of F# (2) to your licks and patterns in that key. Hope that helps!
 
NeoSound, you hit the nail on the head. Based on my 52 years of playing. Check out my site, I've let it go, have not updated it in a long time, so much to do. I'm in Michigan and was just in Kentucky, strange. guitarrevelations.com created them in 1990 there in the library of congress woopdee do
I created 7 what I call, Modal Modulators. They allow you to play in all the modes, all with a common tonic, such that one can apply pitch axis without all the advanced theory. You are the first that I've heard of that has a handle on it.
Once again check out guitarrevelations.com
need to fix the paypal button button but anyone with an Axe Fx who's interested, let me know, special deal
 
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symphx said:
Hi guys, Ive played 35 years and I can hack pretty darn well. I love that G lynch EVH and many others dont know a note key or scale, it makes me feel better. That said,
Id like to learn more theory but get very frustrated, because I can play and hate to sound like a novice learning basic scales again. I have advanced degrees, I know this isnt rocket science, but it just drives me nuts.

Ive read books, Ive tried to memorize patterns, but Id love some basic advice of playing with theory for rock and metal type leads, that stay in key/dont miss notes; I can do this by ear but its probably better, would take less effort if I really knew what I was doing. Forgetting pentatonic for now.

Pointers in the right direction ? (ps caged hasnt dont beans for me either)

ALL THAT BEING SAID, can someone at least tell me something about modes--I have printed 7 mode shapes in the key of F. (random key choice from a random diagram). If I want to play Phrygian mode ala supposedly steve vai, do I just play this same shape all over the fretboard (doubt it but just asking); or if I play this same shape starting on different 6th string notes (roots I guess, which name the key?) I am just playing phrygian in different keys all over, and this makes no musical sense?

The other way of asking this is do all the modes stay in the same shape anywhere on the fretboard, ie. apparently in the key of f, phrygian mode starts with the A on the 6th string (5th fret). So what if I start a phryigian pattern on the 7th fret. Am I still truly phyrigian just in a different key? arrrg Im already lost and boring myself.

(Im just wondering what to do with all these 6 patterns if I memorize them and If i put one pattern in different places. :)
Click to expand...

Seek the assistance of David Wallimann and his extremely accessible and affordable Guitar Infusion weekly lessons to start. Then expand to taste ... like the legato teaching of one Thomas Quayle or the blues/funk insight of the likes of Chistopher Buono! [emoji41]


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bobmichigan said:
NeoSound, you hit the nail on the head. Based on my 52 years of playing. Check out my site, I've let it go, have not updated it in a long time, so much to do. I'm in Michigan and was just in Kentucky, strange. guitarrevelations.com created them in 1990 there in the library of congress woopdee do
I created 7 what I call, Modal Modulators. They allow you to play in all the modes, all with a common tonic, such that one can apply pitch axis without all the advanced theory. You are the first that I've heard of that has a handle on it.
Once again check out guitarrevelations.com
need to fix the paypal button button but anyone with an Axe Fx who's interested, let me know, special deal
Click to expand...

I bought the tab book for Satriani's Surfing with the Alien in 88 transcribed by Wolf Marshall IIRC, Satriani played the same pattern and shifted it up the neck and in Wolf's comments he talked about the changing of modes when this happened. This started me on a quest and I eventually figured out the rest on my own about pitch axis. There are other ways to think of modes but I believe this is the most useful for guitar players.

Another thing most people don't realize is if you have taken the time to learn the major scale in the five basic positions that cover the entire neck you already know how to play every mode in every key over the whole neck.
 
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this might be useful - Guitar KnowledgeNet Forum - Simeon View of Modes (it's good)

1) knowledge is power. don't let anybody tell you that learning something will make you a worse player

2) work it out for yourself and you'll understand it on a much deeper level. usually with this modal stuff, there an "aha" moment when it clicks...but that usually happens when you're in the process of unravelling it by yourself
 
Example

|Am |D |G |Am
Am=A,C,E, D=D,F#,A G=G,B,D Am=A,C,E

Put the notes together in ascending order and you get
A,B,C,D,E,F#,G

A Dorian Mode
1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7

Within every mode there is at least one chord that identifies the mode. Sometimes it takes two though.

A7=Mixolydian
Am7b5=Locrian
Ama7#11=Lydian
Ami7,D7=Dorian
Ami,Bb=Phrygian
 
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Wow, lots of cool stuff in this thread.

Just saw this addition:

groovenut said:
Within every mode there is at least one chord that identifies the mode. Sometimes it takes two though.

A7=Mixolydian
Am7b5=Locrian
Ama7#11=Lydian
Ami7,D7=Dorian
Ami,Bb=Phrygian
Click to expand...

Here are some others to try:

Dorian : min6
Phrygian : min7b9
Mixolydian : 9, 13
Aeolian : min9
 
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