Will this ever sound good in a live band setting?

S

stevieg

Member
Am I wasting my time and chasing something that I will never achieve?

For recording the Axe AX has been great. For live use not so great. I have an Axe FX II XL, Matrix GT1000FX, Port City 2 x 12 with Celestion V Types. Cab Sims Off, Power Amp Sims on. I am an experienced guitarist and live sound engineer. I have used many amps over the years. For some reason I cannot get the Axe FX to deliver (in a live band setting) a truly realistic sound no matter what I do. Eg: A basic 65 Bassguy preset I created sounded great on a recording. Tweaked it in my music room at home for live use (using my live rig). Sounded pretty ok I thought. Rehearsed with the band, it sounded thin; lacked something. Spent hours the next day tweaking it and also dialled in a JTM45 preset and an AC30 TB preset. Went to the next band rehearsal thinking I'd got it right. Sounded worse than first rehearsal. Thin and artificial. Spent two more days tweaking. Scraped the Bassguy and AC30 presets. Spent ages tweaking the JTM and also created a Badger 30 which sounded better than any of the others. In fact in my music room the Badger 30 preset sounded good and almost the sound I was looking for. Soundchecked for a gig... again it sounded thin and artificial. Tweaked it following soundcheck based on what I heard and didn't like during soundcheck. Used it for the gig. Still missing something.

Is this device always going to sound thin and somewhat artificial? There is something lacking. Warmth? Dynamics? I don't know. Is a tube power amp with amp sims disabled the answer? I have tried FRFR which sounds even more artificial to me in a live setting. Am I missing something? I play 80s, 90s rock/pop covers on a Fender Strat, Les Paul and Bill Lawrence Tele. Whilst the Axe FX certainly provides the versatility I've been yearning for I just cannot get a truly realistic sound out of it. Maybe I'm trying to achieve something that's not possible, but given the hype and reviews I thought this device was going to be the answer I've been looking for.

I'm looking for and am interested in others' views and thoughts.

Help!

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Update...

Thanks for all the responses and assistance. I've did try FRFR using the passive Atomic CLR/Matrix GT1000. Don't go through FOH at smaller gigs, which is one of the reasons I went for the Matrix option. I A/B'd FRFR (with cab sims) vs Guitar Cab (without) and found I got a better and more realistic sound with the later. Have spent today trying to get my rig to sound more 'realistic' without that 'digital' sound I keep hearing. After hours and hours it still sounds somewhat artificial to me. (NB: I did set my presets at gig type volume with backing tracks and as mentioned above re-checked at rehearsals and soundcheck.) Something's just not working for me.

Here are the presets I used. Very straight forward. Rhythm sounds on Scenes 1 & 2, lead sounds on Scenes 4 & 5.

Any more thoughts?
 

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Can you try that same cab with a regular amp head? It will give you the perspective of what the cab sounds like independent of the Fractal. And you will get to know the cab and speakers.

For live use, I find the defaults in the amp block deliver a pretty good balanced starting point. The SPKR page parameters are important for a power amp and cab setup vs. IR.

I would set up the live rig and crank it up louder than you think you need. Create your presets at a too loud volume. Then when you back off a little, you should be okay.

First dial in the SPKR page parameters and nothing else. Low Frequency Resonance is the first thing I would adjust. If that doesn't help. Try changing the LF point. The default is pretty good but somewhere in the 75-95 hz range is the likely sweet spot for that cab. Use the reference of the real amp head and that same cab to dial this in.
 
The answer is Yes! it will sound great live! I love mine, doubt I'll ever go back to the limitations of an amp. It did however take a pretty good amount of experimenting time with different monitoring options ! A tube power amp will probably be somewhat fuller because of the low resonance interaction of the tube amp , but playing with the low resonance on the amp block speaker tab should get you good results with the matrix . I own a GT1000FX and a couple cabs, but almost never use them these days . FRFR allows more flexibility and once you get use to it (takes a bit of adaptation from a real cab) you get a lot more options out of your Ax Fx! So much depends on the speaker and cab used or(IR ). The same speaker makes a similarity to all your patches.

What Barthrecords said about the speaker page ^
 
For recording the Axe AX has been great. For live use not so great.
Click to expand...

If you're liking what you hear recording via a full range monitoring setup, you may be just as happy taking the sounds that work for you in the studio onto the stage with the same method, swapping the Port City cab for a full range PA cab (of good quality) with cab sims engaged. Try it...you might like it.

Is this device always going to sound thin and somewhat artificial?
Click to expand...

No, it shouldn't. Too many users do exactly what you do with the Matrix and a traditional cabinet, and with great success, for your experience to be the norm.
 
stevieg said:
Is this device always going to sound thin and somewhat artificial? There is something lacking. Warmth? Dynamics? I don't know. Is a tube power amp with amp sims disabled the answer? I have tried FRFR which sounds even more artificial to me in a live setting. Am I missing something? I play 80s, 90s rock/pop covers on a Fender Strat, Les Paul and Bill Lawrence Tele.
Click to expand...

For me I had to understand that this magical black box is a simulation of a real amp and a recorded version of the cabs that I am simulating. The only FRFR I reference is my studio monitors which help me dial in my new amps + cabs when evaluating.

I would challenge your monitoring and approach to using the AFX as a start. Could you try turning AMP & CAB SIMS ON and plug in your AFX directly to a FOH source? Build a preset in a simple approach (straight shunt and AMP+CAB only) to see what it would sound like.

When you dial in tones only utilizing one method to monitor, the variables change so drastically for going FOH or live cabs making it a hint more difficult to dial in the "right" tones (at least in my experience). Start with what Yek suggested and post a preset for us to see the thin-ness. Thanks!
 
I'm able to make it work very well in a dense live mix- 3 guitar players plus keys and sax recently. I'm using it w/ 1 or 2 Atomic CLR monitors, so cab modeling is on. The settings I used (using mainly the JTM 45 model in this instance) do not sound as good when playing alone or at lower volume.. as would be expected. I haven't tried it w/ a separate power amp and regular guitar cabs though. Not sure what to suggest to you as it seems like you're approaching things the right way by dialing things in during rehearsals within a band mix.
 
Also, as a sanity test, start from scratch with a simple preset for your live rig and don't try to tweak a previous IR based preset.

Drop a Marshall JCM800 or JTM45 into a preset all defaults and run that into your power amp and cab.
 
I go direct into FOH and use IEMs. In my past I used a variety of amps and expensive pedals (cheap ones as well) but I have never, ever sounded better live than I do with my Axe-Fx. That's not just my impression I get from the IEMs, its from the multitrack recordings as well as feedback from everyone who has ears.

The first few patches I made were very questionable live, once I started figuring out the right cabs it was easy going. Of course that won't help you has you have your own cab, but maybe you should try different cabs other than the one you have?
 
I think the device excels best when cab and amp sims are on. Send an XLR feed to the FOH. I believe you will need a different kind of stage monitor than what you have. The cab sims, are what a microphone hears, that is touching the grill cloth, and sounds fantastic in a mix through FOH. However, it may not sound like you'd expect, from past experience of standing a few feet and ear level away from a cranked Twin or having a Twin or half-stack at your backline and standing 6-8 feet in front of it at your mic position. But still, an SM57 1 inch away from your twin or half-stack and plugged into the FOH mains, will be what the crowd hears, and that's what the Axe FX sounds like. People think those two sounds are the same, but they aren't. If you get a "small sound system" or FRFR speakers and put them on stage, again, the system is amplifying the tone of a mic directly in front of a speaker. If you've ever listened to your guitar through a full PA, from the audience's perspective, it does not have the same sound, as when you go on stage and stand directly in front of your amp/speaker cabinet. The act of miking, and then having it conveyed through a PA, changes the way it sounds. The good news is, music listeners, are used to hearing guitar this way. They aren't used to hearing guitar while standing in front of a 4x12. Musicians are used to it, however, and that is the piece you feel you are missing. FRFR or a mini-sound system will help get you there, with axe fx cab and amp sims on, but it still won't be the same to you on-stage, as a 100% traditional amp/speaker cabinet.

To the audience, it will be amazing.
 
My $.02
I struggled with live tone using the Axe and the RCF 12SMA FRFR speaker. I listened to all the advice, being sure to create patch at loud/gig volume. I'd get a great tone dialed in and head to the show. Over and over again, my sound was thin, weak, and gain or compression sounded wrong. I finally realized, at least for me, what the issue was.
I loved the idea of having the monitor face me, so guitar would interact and feedback nicely. What I realized was when I set up at the show, my stage volume with monitor right in my face was too loud. So....I'd turn the output level on the Axe down to set level. Turning down changed how speaker was being driven, and sound and feel completely changed for the worse. I realized if I put speaker behind me like a traditional backline, and left volume at the level I created patch at, my tone was back and sounded great! Took me several shows to figure this out, lol, I'm old and slow.
I suppose if I had created the preset with monitor in my face, and correct level, it would have been fine too. But simply lowering the Output level on front panel was trashing my tone.
This is user error and no fault of the Axe. My tone has been consistently great since "discovering" this.
No clue if this applies to OP, but figured I'd throw it out there.


Sent from my iPhone
 
I was able to set up a bank of modeled amp/cab tones + effects for another guitarist who was traveling at the time (ranging from clean, edge of breakup Fender Twin, to classic rock Plexi, to modern metal 5150, 80s metal JCM 800) in the comfort of my living room using an Atomic CLR. When he returned, we spent an hour tweaking 6 presets with 5 scenes per preset, and the floor pedal moves. They were virtually "gig ready", and he's been using them ever since (about 3 months), sounding great and as "real" as any other stager rig he used, with only a couple more suggestions for some minor preference tweaks.

Point is that this is done all the time. As a new user, you have to develop an understanding and feel for the AxeFx. I know I went through this period with the AxeFx Ultra back in the day. The good news is that it is far easier now than it has ever been, and the quality of the models and cab IRs is excellent IMHO, even the stock ones.

Keep at it and you'll find what you're looking for, hopefully. If not...well...oh well.
 
yek said:
Please post a preset.
Click to expand...

Yes, and a comparison recording(s) using the Celestion V's, and possibly the FRFR's you mentioned (describe them).
I think I remember Cliff once saying something about the "CAB" being 80% of your sound.
I assume you've experimented with all combinations of CAB/AMP sims on/off. Have you considered a different Amplifier? (Despite the fact that the Matrix GT1000FX has a great reputation)
Are you also mixing with FOH? Do you hear the same inadequacy there as well?
 
Sounds great live - the axefx was "not" created\engineered whatever for recording studios. The vision was a unit that that sounded and felt as good as a tube amp with a zillion more options (that's my interpretation of it)

Also, if you read any of this forum before purchase - you would certainly "Know" that of course it sounds great live, but.....................

So...........................Just sayin' - If you get such a great recorded sound it sure seems that your live sound should be just as good - especially considering you are a experienced guitar player and an "audio sound engineer"

You'll find it - I bet you will- This forum (not me persay) will help get you there.
 
May not be your music but Metallica sounds pretty friggin huge live. No thinness there all axe fx.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You need to dial it in against a backing track at gig volume. Years ago I recorded my band sans me for practing my parts, trying new stuff, for your issue its a godsend.
 
This is just my personal opinion which many people most likely don't agree with but I don't think that current SS power amps can replace tube amps. Obviously I haven't tried all SS power amps. Not even the Matrix. I did hear comparison clips though which helped me steer away from trying other SS power amps. Once again I think there's a logical error in thinking a SS power amp will sound like a tube amp with Axe-Fx's power amp modeling. I personally don't think this equation is correct:

(tube amp modeling) + (SS power amp) = (tube amp sound)

I think you get something completely different which you can tweak to sound good. Still when I ran my Axe-Fx through a proper tube power amp (Orange, Mesa, EVH) that's when I felt like the Axe-Fx completely replaced real life amps in the room. Essentially that means that you're using the preamps and effects of the Axe-Fx and everything else is real. This is not a shortcoming in the Axe-Fx. IMO it's a shortcoming in SS power amps not sounding or feeling like tube amps. Wouldn't that be breaking the laws of physics?
 
Hello jimfist! did you get your rig back or is the one you set up still loving yours? had not seen you post here for a bit?
 
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