Will 4cm work better with higher gain amps (Noise?)

[naka2112]

On the axe fx 2 xl that I have, there is hiss and hum when using it in the 4 cm (I've tried everything, trust me).

Does the FX-8 solve this problem? If not completely solved, is there less hiss/hum than the axe fx 2 xl? If it's better, I will buy it to use it exclusively with my tube amps; I'll keep the axe fx 2 xl to use direct into the FOH or for recording. If the fx-8 noise level is the same, I will just stay with what I already have.

Thanks

 

[LVC]

If the FX8 works like other multi effects units that have been designed to work with an amp's effects loop (i.e. M13, G-System etc) -- then the floor noise should be negligible.

This of course assumes that your amp has a decent effects loop to begin with.

Additionally if you are playing super high gain stuff -- noise gate is your best friend

Noise gate - Axe-Fx II Wiki

 

[naka2112]

If the FX8 works like other multi effects units that have been designed to work with an amp's effects loop (i.e. M13, G-System etc) -- then the floor noise should be negligible.

This of course assumes that your amp has a decent effects loop to begin with.

Additionally if you are playing super high gain stuff -- noise gate is your best friend

Noise gate - Axe-Fx II Wiki

Hi there,

What I'm wondering is, will it be exactly the same amount of noise as my axe fx 2 xl when I run it in 4cm without any amp or cab blocks. Or, does the fx-8 have lower noise because it only has one purpose, which is to integrate into a tube amp setup.

If its the same, I may as well just use my axe fx xl in 4cm without any amp or cab blocks. If its quieter, I would like to have both the axe fx 2 xl and the fx-8.

 

[LVC]

Have no idea (maybe one of the beta users can chime in) -- but can only assume since it is designed for use with tube amp loops -- it should be significantly less.

Also if you look at sell sheet put out by FAS -- they make a big deal out of this

Hi there,

What I'm wondering is, will it be exactly the same amount of noise as my axe fx 2 xl when I run it in 4cm without any amp or cab blocks. Or, does the fx-8 have lower noise because it only has one purpose, which is to integrate into a tube amp setup.

If its the same, I may as well just use my axe fx xl in 4cm without any amp or cab blocks. If its quieter, I would like to have both the axe fx 2 xl and the fx-8.

 

[gibsonash]

Hi there,

What I'm wondering is, will it be exactly the same amount of noise as my axe fx 2 xl when I run it in 4cm without any amp or cab blocks. Or, does the fx-8 have lower noise because it only has one purpose, which is to integrate into a tube amp setup.

If its the same, I may as well just use my axe fx xl in 4cm without any amp or cab blocks. If its quieter, I would like to have both the axe fx 2 xl and the fx-8.

+1 . We need a clear answer from Cliff before buy . Same hiss or less compared to XL at the same settings with high gain amp ? Simple ...

 

[The Pierce Project]

Also would like to know this. I haven't tried the 4CM with my Axe 2 and Mark V.... but there is a hiss even without a drive block engaged in front of the amp? I understand with the drive engaged there will be more noise. But I would expect it to be silent with nothing engaged. Hopefully...

 

[naka2112]

Also would like to know this. I haven't tried the 4CM with my Axe 2 and Mark V.... but there is a hiss even without a drive block engaged in front of the amp? I understand with the drive engaged there will be more noise. But I would expect it to be silent with nothing engaged. Hopefully...

The hiss you get without the drive engaged is caused by running a digital device in front of a tube amp on a distorted channel. Adding a drive pedal, will increase the hiss, but that is to be expected.

What people are wondering, is whether the fx-8 has less hiss than the axe fx 2 xl, in front of a distorted tube amp channel, under identical conditions?

It may be that they are the same, and that is fine, since it may be impossible to eliminate. However, if it is the same, I would like to know so I don't waste money buying the fx-8, since I already have the axe fx-2 xl.

If the hiss cannot be avoided because of physics, there may be hope that bypassing the front end will eliminate the hiss. Most people just use time base effects when distorting their sounds anyway (except for wah sounds, etc). Nevertheless, I will buy the fx-8 if the front end bypass eliminates the hiss with a distorted channel. But we haven't had an answer on this yet.

 

[The Pierce Project]

When using a tube amp with an analogue drive pedal (a decent one with true bypass) does not add extra noise to the signal unless it is engaged. I guess I'm hoping the FX8 will act in a similar way. Cliff has advertised almost "no noise" so hopefully this is the case.

 

[The Pierce Project]

I think cliff answered all these questions in the previous thread.... so NM

 

[naka2112]

When using a tube amp with an analogue drive pedal (a decent one with true bypass) does not add extra noise to the signal unless it is engaged. I guess I'm hoping the FX8 will act in a similar way. Cliff has advertised almost "no noise" so hopefully this is the case.

But the following question remains:

When you run the fx-8 in the 4cm, and your amp is set to a distortion channel, does the fx-8 hiss when no effects are in the chain? If so, is it quieter than the axe fx 2 xl under the same conditions (well documented that the axe fx 2 xl hisses in this scenario, although it may be possible to avoid)

 

[LVC]

When using a tube amp with an analogue drive pedal (a decent one with true bypass) does not add extra noise to the signal unless it is engaged. I guess I'm hoping the FX8 will act in a similar way. Cliff has advertised almost "no noise" so hopefully this is the case.

for me it is the loop.

I am holding back on buying a Strymon timeline waiting to see if the FX8 has the same pure analog signal path that the Timeline has. If you are going through the front of the amp it is no big deal -- but through the effects loop of the amp -- it makes a big difference (at least to me it does).

 

[naka2112]

for me it is the loop.

I am holding back on buying a Strymon timeline waiting to see if the FX8 has the same pure analog signal path that the Timeline has. If you are going through the front of the amp it is no big deal -- but through the effects loop of the amp -- it makes a big difference (at least to me it does).

I am almost certain it won't be like the strymon. I think the fx-8 will do an analog bypass, but that will remove the axe from the chain. I don't think you'll be able to mix digital repeats with the analog signal.

 

[javajunkie]

I am almost certain it won't be like the strymon. I think the fx-8 will do an analog bypass, but that will remove the axe from the chain. I don't think you'll be able to mix digital repeats with the analog signal.

That is correct from what I understand.

 

[gibsonash]

But the following question remains:

When you run the fx-8 in the 4cm, and your amp is set to a distortion channel, does the fx-8 hiss when no effects are in the chain? If so, is it quieter than the axe fx 2 xl under the same conditions (well documented that the axe fx 2 xl hisses in this scenario, although it may be possible to avoid)

A clear answer from the builder would be great .

 

[naka2112]

correcting my previous post:

But the following question remains:

When you run the fx-8 in the 4cm, and your amp is set to a distortion channel, does the fx-8 hiss when no effects are in the chain? If so, is it quieter than the axe fx 2 xl under the same conditions (well documented that the axe fx 2 xl hisses in this scenario, although it may be impossible to avoid)

 

[sprint]

for me it is the loop.

I am holding back on buying a Strymon timeline waiting to see if the FX8 has the same pure analog signal path that the Timeline has. If you are going through the front of the amp it is no big deal -- but through the effects loop of the amp -- it makes a big difference (at least to me it does).

i'm trying to understand this issue better as I run into it a lot myself.

I thought that putting a digital device (or part of one in the case of 4cm) in the effects loop of a tube amp is usually quite transparent (I often use a cheapie RP 360 in the loop of my mini rectifier with no problems - It's very quiet and transparent). So do I understand correctly that you experience added hiss when adding digital devices to your tube amp's effects loop? I'm curious about what the considerations are in this respect.

With digital devices in front however my experience, like others here, is the opposite. Invariably, whenever I put a digital device in front of any of my tube amps (or try 4cm), I get some hiss, and I perceive some loss of dynamics. My Axe II performs best in this regard but still generates some noise when run in 4cm (even with output 2 boost/pad adjusted) compared to traditional pedals in front of the amp. After struggling with this for quite some time, I've since gone to having analog petals in front of my tube amp (Ie OD, Wah, comp, whammy....), and using the Axe Fx only in the effects loop of my tube amp for time based fx, reverb etc. it seems a lot of pros end up at this configuration probably for good reason.

If the FX 8 is as transparent as good quality traditional petals in front of an amp (and I have high confidence it will be given FAS's great track record of doing what they set out to do), then I can see FAS selling a tonne of these FX8 units.

Edit: Just read the other "signal path" thread so I better understand your thinking now. I've never owned any hi-end time based analogue pedals so I guess I don't know what I might be missing in that respect.

 

[naka2112]

My experience is that there is only hiss when in front of a tube amp set to a distortion channel. In the effects loop. I think it's because the digital device adds noise before the gain stage of the tube amp. In the effects loop, the gain has already been applied to the signal, so not much hiss when in the effects loop.

Perhaps the fx-8 is better, or at the very least we might be able to bypass the front end of the fx-8 when using a distortion channel on the amp. Be nice to know if this helps.

 

[sprint]

I don't really see the great value in having a true bypass in the "front" part of an effect processor. Sure, you'd get a direct path to the amp input when no before-amp effects are engaged, but, as soon as any before-amp fx are engaged, any digital device related hiss would be re-introduced while the effect is on.

I'm not so concerned about the hiss which can be gated out to a some extent. For me, it's the loss of playing dynamics that I sense when digital devices sit between my guitar and tube amp input. Maybe I'm imagining it as it's a somewhat subtle difference, but for me, anything but traditional buggy/whip pedals in front of my tube amp feels weird. If the Fx8 has no hiss and no dynamics loss with before-amp-input fx engaged then I think it's a huge accomplishment for FAS and I'll be lobbying for budgetary approval regardless of whether or not it has true analogue bypass.

 

[GuitarMan86]

Lots of variables with different high gain amps. I ran into a lot of these issues while I was a previous G-System owner for years.

A lot of it had to do with the effects loop on the amp. If you have a parallel loop with a mix it is probably going to have some bleed and be pretty noisy (I ran into this with Mesa Triple Recto) and Gsystem. If you have a serial loop they were usually pretty quiet (ex. Splawn Quickrod was dead silent).

I had tried everything to quiet down the Triple Recto and ended up having the loop modified to serial to get it nice and quiet. The Splawn was true serial and sound great with no noise at all...that couldn't be tamed with a little noise gate.

It is tough to determine a 'one size fits all' solution here in regards to 'noise'. I have used 4CM with many different amps and the ones that were noisy were always the parallel loops.....not serial.

 

[naka2112]

I don't really see the great value in having a true bypass in the "front" part of an effect processor. Sure, you'd get a direct path to the amp input when no before-amp effects are engaged, but, as soon as any before-amp fx are engaged, any digital device related hiss would be re-introduced while the effect is on.

I'm not so concerned about the hiss which can be gated out to a some extent. For me, it's the loss of playing dynamics that I sense when digital devices sit between my guitar and tube amp input. Maybe I'm imagining it as it's a somewhat subtle difference, but for me, anything but traditional buggy/whip pedals in front of my tube amp feels weird. If the Fx8 has no hiss and no dynamics loss with before-amp-input fx engaged then I think it's a huge accomplishment for FAS and I'll be lobbying the wife for budgetary approval regardless of whether or not it has true analogue bypass.

In my 4cm setup, there is no noticeable hiss when on a clean channel, even with compression and drive pedals etc in the chain. I am pretty sure there is some hiss introduced in this scenario, but it is so small that you cannot hear it.

But when you switch to a distorted channel on the amp, the little bit of normally inaudible hiss is now greatly magnified because of the tube amp gain stage. I have a feeling that this is unavoidable, and not unique to the axe fx. I tried running several digital devices in front of my tube amps on distorted channels, and got much more hiss than the axe fx 2; so I believe that the axe fx 2 is probably more quiet than all other processors in the 4cm. Nevertheless, it would be nice if the hiss wasn't there when on a distortion channel.

For me, I'd be happy if the front end of the fx-8 can be removed from the chain when using a high gain channel. Then I'd bring it back in when using the clean channel, or the clean channel with an overdrive block; in all of these cases hiss would not be an issue.

Hiss would only be an issue if I used a wah on a distortion channel, because I'd have to bring the front end back in to put the wah in front of the amp input.

In my experience, hiss is not an issue at all when running the axe entirely in the effects loop of my amps. I think this is because the little bit of noise introduced comes after the gain stage of the tube amp, so it's not noticeable. Its only an issue before the tube amp preamp.

Basically, the ability to remove the front end and back end of the axe may be kinda like using a gcx or musicomlab pedal loop switcher, where you remove what you don't need.