Why Your Amp Doesn't Sound Like Our Amp

Mudvayne went to Randalls whey later. You can ask anyone in their debut era it was all dual recto.

You can tell Korn went to the triples after Head left.Triples have more of a buzzsaw sound than duals which are smoother and have the characteristic late 90s early 2000's sound. And Korn's See you on the other side release was the switch to triples. But the album before that, take a,look in the Mirror, very obviously dual recs of that specific version.

Everyone in the nu-metal era who wanted to have that nu-metal sound was on Duals. This is very common knowledge. The only band of the era that was not on them was Deftones.

All these other rigs you cite are whey whey after the fact and of a later era. Because artists change their tones. Artists branch off into different rigs. But there is no question that the nu-metal era was a very refined sounding rectifier with a soft top end than later versions or triples which I find edgier.

The new Cannibal Corpse album that just got released is back on the Duals as well and certainly sounds like the older ones.
 
Mudvayne went to Randalls whey later. You can ask anyone in their debut era it was all dual recto.

You can tell Korn went to the triples after Head left.Triples have more of a buzzsaw sound than duals which are smoother and have the characteristic late 90s early 2000's sound. And Korn's See you on the other side release was the switch to triples. But the album before that, take a,look in the Mirror, very obviously dual recs of that specific version.

Everyone in the nu-metal era who wanted to have that nu-metal sound was on Duals. This is very common knowledge. The only band of the era that was not on them was Deftones.

All these other rigs you cite are whey whey after the fact and of a later era. Because artists change their tones. Artists branch off into different rigs. But there is no question that the nu-metal era was a very refined sounding rectifier with a soft top end than later versions or triples which I find edgier.

The new Cannibal Corpse album that just got released is back on the Duals as well and certainly sounds like the older ones.
So I just listened to gallery of suicide and the tone is a rectifier boosted with a metal zone btw. But in my opinion the tone is extremely loose sounding and if that’s what you’re after I’m not sure what’s so difficult with the recto 1 model. In our first exchange I recommend the precision drive cause I thought you said the recto sounds too loose, but honestly the tone on gallery of suicide IS loose, like it doesn’t sound like the engineer even tried very hard on that album to clean up the sound as much as possible while retaining the filth. Pretty much just pure filth. Kinda unique in a way, personally too me it sounds too out of control. The solid state tone they had on tomb was far superior to me.

Cannibal corpse have purposely used boosts that don’t carve out as much low end as a typical tube screamer type pedal for their out of control massive sound. They used modded metal zones and maxon ST9.

I find it pretty dang easy to get in the ballpark at least of the cannibal tones, personally I’m not into nu metal so I’ll just avoid that topic.

If you are putting a TS pedal in front of the dual you are taking out a lot of low end that most of these bands I don’t think are trying to get rid of as much. Their sounds are looser sounding on purpose. It may sound somewhat in control on the record to you but that’s after low cut and hi cuts etc. Bass guitar. Still gallery to me sounds like a big wet fart, the palm mutes are noticeably sloppy and out of control.
 
What does all this mean? Well, I bias the virtual tubes on the warm side. EL34s are biased at around 70% because we don't have to worry about them wearing out. 6L6s are biased a little colder, around 60% but this is actually as "warm" as the EL34s because of the higher plate dissipation of a 6L6.
I'm glad biasing the virtual tubes to where it sounds good won't void my warranty!

I remember back when I used my old JCM 800 if I set the bias to where it sounded best it ate power tubes for breakfast. Maybe this wasn't as big of a deal for the EL34s available back in the 80s, but I found the whole thing an annoying compromise between sounding great and not going in debt to the tube dealer.
 
I'm glad biasing the virtual tubes to where it sounds good won't void my warranty!

I remember back when I used my old JCM 800 if I set the bias to where it sounded best it ate power tubes for breakfast. Maybe this wasn't as big of a deal for the EL34s available back in the 80s, but I found the whole thing an annoying compromise between sounding great and not going in debt to the tube dealer.
Yup, JCM800s sound better with a hot bias IMO. The problem is the plate voltage is too high so when you set the bias higher the dissipation goes up and tube life is shortened. IMO they should've made the plate voltage around 420V. That would allow a hotter bias with longer tube life at the expense of slightly less volume but JCM800s are ungodly loud anyways so...
 
I mean... https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2a/61/f3/2a61f322cc932239bd37c34114d9150f.jpg
I just went and googled to double check, and all the actual pictures of Tribbett's rig from every period ARE Randall or VHT. Backline on a festival doesn't really mean anything. Sometimes those amp diagrams aren't accurate.

And Clint Lowery used the Mark 4 for his rhythm tone until he went to Diamond, and I believe Connolly has been a Randall guy for the band's entire existence. I actually just happened to watch an interview with Lowery yesterday with him talking about it.

And Korn using Triples during whatever period of time really just matters in that it makes it more difficult to figure out what Rectifier revision they were using at a given time.

And, bringing it slightly back on to the topic of this thread before I actually stop this tangent: trying to figure out an amp model to use based on album tones is super complicated. There could be all sorts of other amps thrown into the mix. Comparing a model to album tones is even more iffy than comparing it to an amp a person has played.

I’ve been bugging Clint for years to use his MKIV again because I LOVED his tones using that. Animosity and the first Dark New Day album were just insane tones. I don’t recall ever seeing him with anything but the MKIV, Diamond, EVH and now Kemper. Even in Korn, I’m pretty sure he was still using his MKIV. I know John used to rock Marshall’s back in the day, I think a JCM800 that he still tracks with, before he jumped to Randall. I’ve been a Sevendust fan for a long time and don’t recall seeing any Dual Recs at any point. Could have happened, but I’d assume it was a provided backline for a fly-date or something.

Actually, I’m jumping on Clint’s Patreon because he’s doing writing/recording livestreams. He’s one of my all time favorite musicians, so it’s silly to not spend the $20 for a few months and get some info from him.

I know Tribbet used a Dual Rec and I believe a 5150 on LD50 but was onto VHT for The End Of All Things To Come, which you can see in all the live stuff from that era; specifically the late night shows and the End Of All Things To Come DVD from the Summer Sanitarium tour. For Lost And Found he was onto the Randall stuff. I’m a huge Mudvayne fan, but Greg is on the bottom of my list of reasons why. In that band, the guitar supports the bass and drums, not the other way around. Which is perfectly fine when Ryan Martini is in your band.
 
Yup, exactly what I was doing bud. Sounds amazing. But its not that mid to late 90s rectifier sound that I'm looking for. Remember Sevendust back in the day? Thats the dual rectifier hallmark sound. Limp Bizkit had that sound too.
Also that reggae-metal band Skindred.
And now that I recall this tone, I want it even badlier now. It was such a fine sound.
I think Korn had that sound on one album Issues. It had this softened quality to it's fat high gain.
Also I think Sepultura for Roots when they went all nu-metalish.
Please Cliff, please do try to model that magical dual rectifier with that fat gain! Such an iconic sound.
Have you tried Leon todds trick
turn of the Variac to simulate the spongy mode
put variac 75 % and turn up the Sag and bass it will start to get that looser rumble
 
The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either.

Why?

1. Component accuracy and drift.
The components used in tube amps are low-cost, consumer-grade parts. They typically have tolerances of 10% or more. Over time the value of these components drifts. If your amp is old chances are it doesn't sound like it did when it was new. All our old reference amps are given a thorough checkup prior to modeling with any out-of-tolerance parts replaced.​

2. Potentiometer tolerance.
A typical consumer potentiometer has a tolerance of up to +/- 20%. That's huge and that's end-to-end accuracy. On top of that the midpoint accuracy can be another +/- 20%. So if you have a 1M pot it could be as low as 800K. If it's linear it's midpoint should be 400K but could be as low as 360K. Now your 1M pot that should be 500K at halfway is only 360K. That's an error of 28%!​

3. Potentiometer taper.
A big one. Potentiometers come in a variety of tapers: linear, 30A, 20A, 10A, etc. The taper on an audio taper pot (i.e. 30A) denotes the value of the pot at mid rotation. For example a 1M, 10A pot would be 10% of its value at "noon", or 100K.​
Manufacturers are constantly changing the taper of the pots in their amps. Sometimes the designer changes the taper as customers are reticent to turn knobs much away from noon. It's a weird psychological thing. Sometimes the manufacturer changes the taper due to availability concerns. Sometimes they change the taper when moving manufacturing locations. Sometimes they change the taper for no apparent reason at all.​
Another factor is that almost all amps don't use true log taper pots. They use "commercial log" taper which is a crude approximation to a log taper. This is because true log taper pots are expensive. Fractal Audio products use true log taper. This means that '7' on your amp is not exactly '7' on the model even if the pot in your amp is exactly 1M and its taper is exactly 10A. Why do we do it this way? Because the response is smoother and if true log pots were the same price as consumer log pots everyone would use true log taper.​
We model all amps assuming the pots are ideal. We assume the end-to-end resistance is exactly, say, 1M and the midpoint is, say, exactly 100K. We DO NOT use the values measured in our reference amp because no two amps are the same so we use the DESIGNERS INTENDED VALUE.​
What all this means is '3' on your amp is not necessarily the same as '3' on the Axe-Fx.​
Example: the Master Volume pot in a 5150 is a 1M, 15A audio taper pot. Theoretically it should be 150K at noon. On our reference amp it's about 15% low. If the reference amp's MV is set to '3' we have to set the model to around '2.5' to match. This is unsurprising due to the tolerance of the reference amp's pot.​
4. Indicator accuracy.
On many amps if you set a knob to noon it's not actually halfway in the pot's rotation. Why? Several reasons. Some amps are just weird. For example the Bogner Shiva's minimum rotation is around 6:00 and the maximum is around 4:00. So noon is actually past midpoint. Same with Soldanos. In other cases the knobs aren't oriented perfectly on the shaft. If it's a knurled shaft the knob may be off one tooth. If it's a smooth shaft then you're at the mercy of the human who put the knob on the shaft and tightened the set screw. This is why I prefer D-shafts. Finally the pot itself may be rotated relative to the panel.​
You can try this yourself. Turn the knob on your amp fully CCW. Note the position of the indicator. Now rotate fully CW. Note the marker position. If it's an old amp it's probably not symmetrical.​
Then there's the whole marking thing. Fender's are numbered 1-10. Soldanos go to 11. We use 0-10 so be wary of the amp's numbering.​

5. Power Tube Bias.
Another big one. The transconductance (gain) of a power tube can vary greatly. This is why power tubes are color coded, sold in matched sets, etc.​
Amps come in two flavors: fixed bias and cathode bias. Fixed bias amps apply a "fixed" voltage to the grid of the power tubes. Cathode bias amps use a resistor between the cathode and ground to self bias the tube.​
Most, but not all, fixed bias amps allow the user to adjust the bias point of the amp. This allows the bias point to be set to an optimum value for the particular set of tubes installed (since the transconductance can vary greatly). Some fixed bias amps do not allow adjustment. Examples are Mesa/Boogies, 5150s, and several other brands/types. The drawback of this is that the bias can vary greatly depending upon the gain of the tubes installed. Due to this the manufacturers err on the safe side and the bias is usually much colder than the ideal value.​
Most cathode biased amps are not adjustable. Again you are at the mercy of the tube's gain but these amps tend to be biased hot to begin with and have higher transformer matching which prevents excursion outside of the S.O.A. (safe operating area).​
If the bias is adjustable where the manufacturer decides to bias their tubes is a matter of preference. Most manufacturers bias their tubes on the cold side to prevent premature failure and reduce warranty claims. Especially the larger manufacturers.​
This leads to the question of "what is the ideal bias point?" The pervasive school of thought is you adjust the bias so the idle dissipation is 60-70% of the tube's peak power rating. This is a safe approach and ensures that the tubes don't "red plate" and live fairly long and prosperous lives.​
My opinion is that the ideal bias point is NOT a function of the tube's power rating. It's the point at which the power amp's transfer function is most linear. Unfortunately operating the tubes at that point can result in exceeding the tube's S.O.A. So the optimum bias point depends on the tube's power rating, the transformer primary impedance (matching) and the user's tolerance to tube replacement frequency.​
For example, if we bias an EL34 based power amp at 60% peak dissipation it's actually running fairly cold. If we know that the transformer is slightly overmatched we can bias the tubes hotter, 70% or even more. This will result in a warmer tone but the tubes will wear faster.​
What does all this mean? Well, I bias the virtual tubes on the warm side. EL34s are biased at around 70% because we don't have to worry about them wearing out. 6L6s are biased a little colder, around 60% but this is actually as "warm" as the EL34s because of the higher plate dissipation of a 6L6.​
In practice this means that the models in the Axe-Fx will biased warmer than a new amp straight out of the box as most amps are biased cold (too cold IMO). After you wear the tubes out and bring it to a tech the tech will replace those tubes and bias them hotter than factory. So if you're comparing your new, out-of-the box 5150 with the Axe-Fx model the amp will probably sound "colder". Some people like this, many do not. If you like a colder sounding power amp it's just a knob twist away.​
An amazing post, thanks for taking the time to do this.
Even to someone like me who's probably pretty high on the 'daftness' Richter scale, it's very understandable. And when you put all the aforementioned deviations together, it's potentially going to make some amps vary quite a lot.
It really lays the schlapdown to the 'waaah, my amp doesn't sound like the Axe.'
I'm sure you said ages ago you had 4 JCM800s and they all sounded different?
In this era of lies, snake oils and relativity, it's great to see someone speaking the truth and not retreating into childish subjectivity or 'magic.'
We salute you, Cliff!
 
Have you tried Leon todds trick
turn of the Variac to simulate the spongy mode
put variac 75 % and turn up the Sag and bass it will start to get that looser rumble
Looser rumble?? Bruh!
Im looking for precise focus!
A tight fatness. If anything, the recto model has too loose of a low end without tweaks or adding the horizon in front. The FAS models seem whey better!
Im referring to more the top end. But now that people mention it, the low end is also key to be extremely tight to retain focus.
Im complaining of flubby low end on the recto im trying to tighten up and people in this thread have suggested I need a looser rumble. How does that make sense?
 
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So I just listened to gallery of suicide and the tone is a rectifier boosted with a metal zone btw. But in my opinion the tone is extremely loose sounding and if that’s what you’re after I’m not sure what’s so difficult with the recto 1 model. In our first exchange I recommend the precision drive cause I thought you said the recto sounds too loose, but honestly the tone on gallery of suicide IS loose, like it doesn’t sound like the engineer even tried very hard on that album to clean up the sound as much as possible while retaining the filth. Pretty much just pure filth. Kinda unique in a way, personally too me it sounds too out of control. The solid state tone they had on tomb was far superior to me.

Cannibal corpse have purposely used boosts that don’t carve out as much low end as a typical tube screamer type pedal for their out of control massive sound. They used modded metal zones and maxon ST9.

I find it pretty dang easy to get in the ballpark at least of the cannibal tones, personally I’m not into nu metal so I’ll just avoid that topic.

If you are putting a TS pedal in front of the dual you are taking out a lot of low end that most of these bands I don’t think are trying to get rid of as much. Their sounds are looser sounding on purpose. It may sound somewhat in control on the record to you but that’s after low cut and hi cuts etc. Bass guitar. Still gallery to me sounds like a big wet fart, the palm mutes are noticeably sloppy and out of control.
The gain may have been a bit loose and a bit on the overdone side but still very chunky and not bad focus on the low tunings.
Thats definetly right on with the metal zone... it was stacked in front. But not just as a boost, there was a bit of its clipping stacked in combined with the recto. I remember trying this a few times in stores when I could never afford that recto. The results were identical to that nu-metal oriented sound. (And I guess some death metal for higher gain).
The popular thing to do was to send those MT-2s to get the keeley mod to take out the shrillness and crispiness.
That album was a classic. For those who can't take the vocals, just listen to the track "From Skin to Liquid". Its simply marvelous. Everyone back then wanted that gain sound!
 
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The gain may have been a bit loose and a bit on the overdone side but still very chunky and not bad focus on the low tunings.
Thats definetly right on with the metal zone... it was stacked in front. But not just as a boost, there was a bit of its clipping stacked in combined with the recto. I remember trying this a few times in stores when I could never afford that recto. The results were identical to that nu-metal oriented sound. (And I guess some death metal for higher gain).
The popular thing to do was to send those MT-2s to get the keeley mod to take out the shrillness and crispiness.
That album was a classic.
I was confused because apart from
maybe Sevendust. The others tones
Korn Mudvayne and Limp bizcuit have some of the loosest untamed recto boom around IMO
tight Recto to me would be more like Tremonti / Skillet but there is a ton of studio polish on that
 
Great topic. As I don't own any tube amps for over 8 years now, the moral I get out of this : don't think knobs but use your ears
 
I was confused because apart from
maybe Sevendust. The others tones
Korn Mudvayne and Limp bizcuit have some of the loosest untamed recto boom around IMO
tight Recto to me would be more like Tremonti / Skillet but there is a ton of studio polish on that

Tremonti has been also an Archon (MT-15 is very similar) user for quite a while.
 
This topic can be also extended to pedals. Some 20 years ago, I made my first effect - a distortion pedal. A copy of the Marshall Shredmaster. By the time, there were no high quality pots available and I've used parts that I had from burned car radios. I just pulled it out today because I've noticed that it's in the FM3. I also have a newer Shredmaster pedal, so I took them and compared. None of them sound like the other! :D the newer one sounds to me more close to the Fractal model, but mine has a completely different character. I must say, that I love it the most, but I need to open it up and see if I can get the same components and build another one. :cool:

Anyways. The conclusion is ... even if the name is the same, there are so many variants, that only ones from the same series may sound close, but event in those, there will be deviation.
 
I’m a huge Mudvayne fan, but Greg is on the bottom of my list of reasons why. In that band, the guitar supports the bass and drums, not the other way around. Which is perfectly fine when Ryan Martini is in your band.

My band has opened for Soften The Glare twice, and Ryan for sure is an interesting dude. His graphic EQ is shaped like a rainbow and it's a combination of that and his own technique, setup, (and the parts he writes) that make it work, I think anyone else who picked up that bass would sound like crap.

Looking forward to the new STG and also what the new Mudvayne stuff will bring.
 
My band has opened for Soften The Glare twice, and Ryan for sure is an interesting dude. His graphic EQ is shaped like a rainbow and it's a combination of that and his own technique, setup, (and the parts he writes) that make it work, I think anyone else who picked up that bass would sound like crap.

Looking forward to the new STG and also what the new Mudvayne stuff will bring.

Absolutely, dude is all about the mids. Easily my favorite bass player of all time, dude just has such a unique approach to playing and picking his parts. If I can play 1/4 as well as he can on bass, I'd be happy. I dig STG quite a bit, too. Definitely good music to take a few bong rips and listen to. 😃
 
The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either.

Why?

1. Component accuracy and drift.
The components used in tube amps are low-cost, consumer-grade parts. They typically have tolerances of 10% or more. Over time the value of these components drifts. If your amp is old chances are it doesn't sound like it did when it was new. All our old reference amps are given a thorough checkup prior to modeling with any out-of-tolerance parts replaced.​

2. Potentiometer tolerance.
A typical consumer potentiometer has a tolerance of up to +/- 20%. That's huge and that's end-to-end accuracy. On top of that the midpoint accuracy can be another +/- 20%. So if you have a 1M pot it could be as low as 800K. If it's linear it's midpoint should be 400K but could be as low as 360K. Now your 1M pot that should be 500K at halfway is only 360K. That's an error of 28%!​

3. Potentiometer taper.
A big one. Potentiometers come in a variety of tapers: linear, 30A, 20A, 10A, etc. The taper on an audio taper pot (i.e. 30A) denotes the value of the pot at mid rotation. For example a 1M, 10A pot would be 10% of its value at "noon", or 100K.​
Manufacturers are constantly changing the taper of the pots in their amps. Sometimes the designer changes the taper as customers are reticent to turn knobs much away from noon. It's a weird psychological thing. Sometimes the manufacturer changes the taper due to availability concerns. Sometimes they change the taper when moving manufacturing locations. Sometimes they change the taper for no apparent reason at all.​
Another factor is that almost all amps don't use true log taper pots. They use "commercial log" taper which is a crude approximation to a log taper. This is because true log taper pots are expensive. Fractal Audio products use true log taper. This means that '7' on your amp is not exactly '7' on the model even if the pot in your amp is exactly 1M and its taper is exactly 10A. Why do we do it this way? Because the response is smoother and if true log pots were the same price as consumer log pots everyone would use true log taper.​
We model all amps assuming the pots are ideal. We assume the end-to-end resistance is exactly, say, 1M and the midpoint is, say, exactly 100K. We DO NOT use the values measured in our reference amp because no two amps are the same so we use the DESIGNERS INTENDED VALUE.​
What all this means is '3' on your amp is not necessarily the same as '3' on the Axe-Fx.​
Example: the Master Volume pot in a 5150 is a 1M, 15A audio taper pot. Theoretically it should be 150K at noon. On our reference amp it's about 15% low. If the reference amp's MV is set to '3' we have to set the model to around '2.5' to match. This is unsurprising due to the tolerance of the reference amp's pot.​
4. Indicator accuracy.
On many amps if you set a knob to noon it's not actually halfway in the pot's rotation. Why? Several reasons. Some amps are just weird. For example the Bogner Shiva's minimum rotation is around 6:00 and the maximum is around 4:00. So noon is actually past midpoint. Same with Soldanos. In other cases the knobs aren't oriented perfectly on the shaft. If it's a knurled shaft the knob may be off one tooth. If it's a smooth shaft then you're at the mercy of the human who put the knob on the shaft and tightened the set screw. This is why I prefer D-shafts. Finally the pot itself may be rotated relative to the panel.​
You can try this yourself. Turn the knob on your amp fully CCW. Note the position of the indicator. Now rotate fully CW. Note the marker position. If it's an old amp it's probably not symmetrical.​
Then there's the whole marking thing. Fender's are numbered 1-10. Soldanos go to 11. We use 0-10 so be wary of the amp's numbering.​

5. Power Tube Bias.
Another big one. The transconductance (gain) of a power tube can vary greatly. This is why power tubes are color coded, sold in matched sets, etc.​
Amps come in two flavors: fixed bias and cathode bias. Fixed bias amps apply a "fixed" voltage to the grid of the power tubes. Cathode bias amps use a resistor between the cathode and ground to self bias the tube.​
Most, but not all, fixed bias amps allow the user to adjust the bias point of the amp. This allows the bias point to be set to an optimum value for the particular set of tubes installed (since the transconductance can vary greatly). Some fixed bias amps do not allow adjustment. Examples are Mesa/Boogies, 5150s, and several other brands/types. The drawback of this is that the bias can vary greatly depending upon the gain of the tubes installed. Due to this the manufacturers err on the safe side and the bias is usually much colder than the ideal value.​
Most cathode biased amps are not adjustable. Again you are at the mercy of the tube's gain but these amps tend to be biased hot to begin with and have higher transformer matching which prevents excursion outside of the S.O.A. (safe operating area).​
If the bias is adjustable where the manufacturer decides to bias their tubes is a matter of preference. Most manufacturers bias their tubes on the cold side to prevent premature failure and reduce warranty claims. Especially the larger manufacturers.​
This leads to the question of "what is the ideal bias point?" The pervasive school of thought is you adjust the bias so the idle dissipation is 60-70% of the tube's peak power rating. This is a safe approach and ensures that the tubes don't "red plate" and live fairly long and prosperous lives.​
My opinion is that the ideal bias point is NOT a function of the tube's power rating. It's the point at which the power amp's transfer function is most linear. Unfortunately operating the tubes at that point can result in exceeding the tube's S.O.A. So the optimum bias point depends on the tube's power rating, the transformer primary impedance (matching) and the user's tolerance to tube replacement frequency.​
For example, if we bias an EL34 based power amp at 60% peak dissipation it's actually running fairly cold. If we know that the transformer is slightly overmatched we can bias the tubes hotter, 70% or even more. This will result in a warmer tone but the tubes will wear faster.​
What does all this mean? Well, I bias the virtual tubes on the warm side. EL34s are biased at around 70% because we don't have to worry about them wearing out. 6L6s are biased a little colder, around 60% but this is actually as "warm" as the EL34s because of the higher plate dissipation of a 6L6.​
In practice this means that the models in the Axe-Fx will biased warmer than a new amp straight out of the box as most amps are biased cold (too cold IMO). After you wear the tubes out and bring it to a tech the tech will replace those tubes and bias them hotter than factory. So if you're comparing your new, out-of-the box 5150 with the Axe-Fx model the amp will probably sound "colder". Some people like this, many do not. If you like a colder sounding power amp it's just a knob twist away.​
Thanks Cliff.

I've been trying to tell many people what you've conveyed here over the years, only I wasn't able to explain it like you have.

Now when I get asked why I'm using 4CM instead of the modeling "if it's so real / authentic" I will just link this thread.

Ps, I also use "the modeling" for me, everything works in tandem.
 
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