Why was Output 2 designed to be wideband?

L

Luca9583

Inspired
As mentioned in a previous thread i started, I have had the Output 2 mod done and i can safely say that the unit is now usable for 4CM. Excellent!

On behalf of all the users on this board, i think it would be constructive for Fractal to finally provide an explanation for why Output 2 was designed to be wideband in the first place if it results in unwanted hiss and audio junk when using the 4CM, and furthermore why Fractal does not recommend getting the mod done if it solves the problem and makes Output 2 usable?

I would also like to know why Output 2 now has less hiss than Output 1 after the mod, and, if the mod was provided for free, why do users still have to pay for shipping to correct what currently appears to be an undesirable fault?

Also, several reports from users confirm that the hiss also appears in clean sounding amplifiers and is not limited to 4CM with high gain amps only, so this needs to be clarified.

Furthermore, several users on the waiting list have mentioned that they might not buy the unit because of this issue and as someone who thinks the Axe II is a fantastic product, i think it would be highly beneficial if we could finally clarify all of this.
 
Seems like you already got your answers in that thread.

FractalAudio said:
There is a difference in the output filtering. Output 2 was intentionally designed to be wider band because people complained about "tone sucking" with the original Axe-Fx.
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FractalAudio said:
Output 2 operates within published specifications. It is just at the published spec of 110 dB. However, in 4CM even this can create objectionable noise into the front of a high-gain amp since the signal itself is well below full-scale. There is a minor modification that we can perform the improves the noise by about 3-5 dB. Not a huge improvement but noticeable. This reduces the bandwidth of that output slightly which some people may feel "colors" or "sucks tone" so we only recommend it if you feel the noise is objectionable.

Unfortunately whenever you go A/D and D/A you get noise. We use some of the best converters available but you can't overcome the basic laws of physics.
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Phostenix said:
Seems like you got your answers in that thread.
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Neither of those quotes provide a real explanation mate...there is no point in making an output wideband to not suck tone if it means introducing noise into the signal path. Why is there a difference in filtering between the 2 outputs? Some people might want to send a duplicate of Output 1 to Output 2, or use the 4CM method, or any other configuration..the difference between outputs is totally undesirable.
 
I was going to use 4CM with my triaxis, not happy with the result.
Now I use, output 1 XLR to studiomonitors (if available), output 2 to poweramp->cab.
 
why is the gas pedal on the right? why is a computer keyboard asdfjkl;?

it just is. that's how it was designed. don't like out 2? well with the axe you can get it modified. why isn't it modded to begin with? it just isn't. might he change it in the future? maybe, probably not. i would suggest starting a wish list thread and poll to ask if people want it to be modded from the beginning.

all this other bickering is just noise. a request is one thing. constant badgering is another.
 
there is another thread of yours already discussing this topic. could this request have been made in there?

i'm glad the mod works for you and i hope you get all the tone you desire!
 
Luca9583 said:
This is a request mate and no-one is bickering here. Peace.
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Well.

Your question is framed around the argument 'undesirable fault', and basically a demand that Cliff jump in and defend the design. Imply that it should be Fractal's responsibility to pay to 'fix' it should you want it, and insinuate that there's a huge market that won't buy because of it. You may not see it that way, but I've no horse in the race here, and I read that.

I'm sure you have issues, but the mod exists, so why need to keep going on this? I have no problems (as do most from what I see), but instead you'll insist that the inverse exist, and that the mod exist (or be provided in a hardware solution) for those who like it the way that it is.

I'm fine with discussion, but I'm close to folding this into the other thread.

Ron
 
I like the unit just the way it is, most other processors only have one set of outputs anyways and no where near the routing possibilities.
 
i have a slight hiss w/ my boomerang looper hooked up through the fx loop.... would this mod help me, or should i try the humbuster cables first?
 
People will always complain about something, the explanation as to the purpose of the wide band output seemed pretty obvious and logical, the OP reads like he's fishing for an apology from fractal. Boo-hoo.
 
jdolll said:
People will always complain about something, the explanation as to the purpose of the wide band output seemed pretty obvious and logical, the OP reads like he's fishing for an apology from fractal. Boo-hoo.
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Hmm...I guess I empathize with some others about the explanation not making a lot of sense. If you have designed a unit to be used with an FRFR system (either your personal one or a PA), you would expect wide bandwidth on the outputs. If the engineers found that there was extraneous hiss above the bandwidth of a "normal" guitar amp (say, above 8kHz to be safe), you might expect them to apply a hi-cut filter to it. Heck, even guitar amps limit high frequencies to avoid oscillations above the useful range of the amplifier.

But I'd have expected that to be the case no matter whether the usage for that output was for an FRFR system or for use with a guitar amp, where the loss of extreme high frequencies is likely to be even less perceptible.

Then there's a quote from an email I got from a FAS employee:

"The mod reduces the noise floor for use with the 4CM, but this also reduces it further for use with full range systems with no adverse effects on sound quality."

So I think for people who hear noise there (more than from Output 1), it is disconcerting to hear explanations that don't seem to explain the situation logically. Seems to me FAS might be better off coming up with a clearer explanation of the rationale behind the initial design, what the mod really is, what its costs and benefits are, and put it in a sticky or something. Otherwise they risk the same effect politicians get when they can't seem to "come clean" on an issue. How big an effect is that? Probably not big. But what's the relative cost of dealing with it more clearly?
 
I think its a valid post,

Myself I haven't even used output 2 but it sounds like I should. Maybe FAS wanted to set it up as a happy medium and then see what users will do with it. Make changes accordingly if needed. I understand shipping maybe an issue for some but people who buy an expensive piece of gear like this usually dont care about shipping cost. Usually if you send a message and ask the manufacturer to cover the cost for shipping they will have it picked up.
 
I still don't understand why the solution involves modifying the unit which is a PITA due to shipping etc (and for my taste, the less tinkering that occurs inside my unit the better). Why is a simple adapter not an option? (we could order it for a few $ and have it shipped cheaply as well without having to ship our units). I agree this subject is being beaten to death but for all the discussion, not much useful info has emerged.
 
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