Why the Obsession with FRFR Solutions?

LVC

LVC

Fractal Fanatic
If the Axe is most often used FOH or plugged into your PA (live) -- then why do you need an expensive FRFR speaker if you intend to use the Axe live and not in a studio or home setting?

Unless you are using the FRFR speaker as you source of amplification at a gig -- nobody is going to hear it.

Wouldn't be better (and cheaper) -- just to either plug into your PA or one of your PA speakers to dial in your Axe?

Just wondering folks that is all.
 
aleclee said:
Because it sounds better[SUP]*[/SUP] to the player and many people find that more inspiring.

[SUP]*[/SUP] - "Better" being a subjective and personal value
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So what you are saying it is a better personal monitor.... but in the overall picture not really neccessary. Sort of a luxury item because you will still need a monitor for the rest of the band mix right?

Again I am still trying to find the logic because if you are going to go through a PA wouldn't make more sense to have your guitar go through the same monitors everyone else is going through so you can get a real sense of the mix and sound to the audience?

Really the more I think about it the less sense it makes to me -- again in a live setting.

Not slagging the solutions -- they sound great but when I look at them from this perspective they look like a bit of an overkill (again for live playing not home or studio use)

If you are not going through PA or FOH -- then that is another matter.
 
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If you go trough FOH, you are at the mercy of the guy doing your sound. I would never base my personal sound on something some other guy is screwing around with. The FOH will probably be altered and i want MY sound. That's the reason i use personal monitoring. Monitoring for me could be both regular cab or FRFR.
 
LVC said:
Again I am still trying to find the logic because if you are going to go through a PA wouldn't make more sense to have your guitar go through the same monitors everyone else is going through so you can get a real sense of the mix and sound to the audience?

Really the more I think about it the less sense it makes to me -- again in a live setting.
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It's logical, but my question is to you then, why buy a "monitor" that sounds more like a guitar cab if you are going to go through a PA?
Your preset will be even more far from what the audience hear!
 
Few things come to mind:

People up close or to the side of the stage will not hear you at all if you dont have some stage volume.
FOH guy doesnt want to turn you up... problem easily fixed.
Guitar interaction with volume (feedback).
 
Personally I want a true FRFR so I know how my preset really sounds (more like I know when my preset sounds bad). That will help the sound guy as well. If you send him a preset that sounds good only on your "monitor", then he will have to fix your (in that case boomyness), before he can make you fit into the mix.
 
Kriig said:
If you go trough FOH, you are at the mercy of the guy doing your sound. I would never base my personal sound on something some other guy is screwing around with. The FOH will probably be altered and i want MY sound. That's the reason i use personal monitoring. Monitoring for me could be both regular cab or FRFR.
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Yeah but what the FOH guy does (in this case is me -- I am in charge of the PA -- I wish I was not because I am the one that has to load it and haul it around to gigs LOL) is what the audience hears.

If you are monitoring yourself and getting a great sound terrific -- but if that is not what is going out through the PA speakers to the audience then what is the point?

Not trying to be argumentative -- just trying to understand this.
 
levipeto said:
Personally I want a true FRFR so I know how my preset really sounds (more like I know when my preset sounds bad). That will help the sound guy as well. If you send him a preset that sounds good only on your "monitor", then he will have to fix your (in that case boomyness), before he can make you fit into the mix.
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What if you own your own PA and do not use a sound guy? By the way I have not played in one club in the last 5 years that had their own FOH and sound guy - not a very common thing at least in the bar/restaurant circuit I play in (NJ/NY).
 
LVC said:
Yeah but what the FOH guy does (in this case is me -- I am in charge of the PA -- I wish I was not because I am the one that has to load it and haul it around to gigs LOL) is what the audience hears.

If you are monitoring yourself and getting a great sound terrific -- but if that is not what is going out through the PA speakers to the audience then what is the point?

Not trying to be argumentative -- just trying to understand this.
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I would probably buy 3 of the same "expensive" PA speakers and use one as monitor
 
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levipeto said:
It's logical, but my question is to you then, why buy a "monitor" that sounds more like a guitar cab if you are going to go through a PA?
Your preset will be even more far from what the audience hear!
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I use in-ear monitors when performing. I would like to have a full range system for when I am programming sounds at home, to prepare for gigs, where I always go direct and never use a real amp. I currently plug my axe outputs into the effect return of a solid state Marshall AVT275 in stereo. This amp has an acoustic simulation channel on the front end, so I think it is more full range than a standard tube amp Marshall would be, but that is just a guess. Anyways, I have had this amp for 10 years for messing around at home, and have been plugging direct into FOH for the same amount of time, with every modeler that has come along. I have also sat in the audience of the venues and programmed my rig while plugged directly into the system....again, without an amp.

I have "learned" how to program at home with the Marshall as my reference, and know what to boost or cut while programming, so that my sound sounds good through the full range sound system. I also record into LOGIC and listen to how my sound sits in a mix with a band rehearsal recording that is done direct out of the mixer, earlier in the week.

It's not perfect, but again, I have learned what to do to the tone, and the full band EQ in the amp block of the Axe to translate to a good sound when going direct through a real system.

But I think I would tend to go with a small sound system mixer/head to use at home as a reference, because then I could also mix in other tracks and or instruments for quiet practicing, or sort of a "corner of a restaurant type gig." A super expensive full range flat response system for just my guitar, doesn't make sense for me - we don't allow amps or floor wedges where I play - everything is in-ears only.

But then again, I get comments about how the AXE can do 90% of what I need, without all my other gear, so I can't fault the next guy for having his cake and eating it too. I always respond 'Yes, it can, that is a testament to how awesome it is...it can get me 90% there, and I need alllllllllllllll that other crap to make the last 10%."

Thanks for reading this. Now hit refresh again on the fractal page to see if AE and V10 have dropped yet...C'mon, you know you want to.
 
levipeto said:
Personally I want a true FRFR so I know how my preset really sounds (more like I know when my preset sounds bad). That will help the sound guy as well. If you send him a preset that sounds good only on your "monitor", then he will have to fix your (in that case boomyness), before he can make you fit into the mix.
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Exactly. Also, in some situations I may not play have a PA to play through so ill use the FRFR as a very versatile guitar cab.
 
Hearing myself well, enjoying it and being inspired by it makes me play better, allows me to enjoy performing and inspires those moments when you let go and live in the moment playing in a band with other musicians.... instead of fussing, worrying about or being preoccupied with substandard gear.

Personally speaking, I also play acoustic, electric and sometimes bass through my rig making FRFR/direct-to-FOH a very serious need rather than some extravagant indulgence. ;)

Life is too short to settle for mediocrity. I choose the tools I use to perform music based on how they perform, their reliability, consistency and overall performance. Whether or not that is 'expensive' is open to debate, I instead focus on the actual performance of the gear based on my needs and expectations to determine their value no matter the 'price' of the gear. If I had a $300 powered speaker that worked well for me, so be it. I tried many, none did the job in a satisfying manner for me.
 
Using FRFR cabs in a gig for me is a no brainer. I run my Axe through the PA at all gigs but a lot of sound comes from the stage. If people are standing in front of the band they hear the stage volume as much as if not more than the mains. Friends of mine using the Axe have experienced the same. The closer you get to the stage....the less guitar you hear in the mix until you get front and center. Then the guitar all but gets lost compared to the drums, bass, keys and live stage amps. Also, I can EQ my sound through my FRFR and not the monitor EQ which is primarily EQ for vocals. I can also point my cabs wherever I want. If the venue has enough stage room I'll use one cab on each side of the stage which gets an incredible stereo separation.
 
levipeto said:
It's logical, but my question is to you then, why buy a "monitor" that sounds more like a guitar cab if you are going to go through a PA?
Your preset will be even more far from what the audience hear!
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I am just trying to understand this and the obsession with the solutions.

Trust me I know gear obsession.
Four Bludotone dumble clone amps, 8 Historic Les Pauls, 4 tom Anderson, 5 Suhrs, 4 Fenders, Several Martins, basement full of vintage amps, multiple pedal boards, shelves full of pedals etc etc --

I sold most of my gear and I consider myself "partially cured" and I am trying very hard to stay that way!
 
Scott, spending some time this afternoon redoing my basic settings for feeding my gear through effects loop and maintaining unity gain. I also set my rear input to Left only and was finally able to tickle the red. Thanks for the instructional videos and for replying to my question on YouTube.
 
LVC said:
but if that is not what is going out through the PA speakers to the audience then what is the point?
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why wouldn't that sound be going out of the PA? the goal is to get a speaker that of course sounds good to you on stage, so that you can "feel" what you need to and hear yourself, also creating a great stage mix.

sure, if you had a great PA system with tons of monitors with everyone having their own mix, you could just mix your guitar signal through your monitor exactly the way you want. generally this isn't the case.

a typical PA system, supplied or brought by the band, only has 2 monitors and those are usually for the vocalists to hear themselves over all the other instruments, instruments that usually have their own sound source i.e. drums, bass amps, guitar amps, etc. keyboardists and acoustic guitarists usually don't bring their own speaker, and they usually either can't hear themselves well during the gig because they are in the backline of the band trying to hear themselves through the vocalist's monitors at the front of the stage... or they creep their volume up during the gig so they CAN hear themselves, but then are way too loud for the monitor's intended mix.

even with a great sound system and sound guy, monitors are usually EQ'd and used almost solely for the vocals. many sound guys are trained not to put everything in the mix, but many artists these days want to hear a "CD" sound of their band through that monitor. it's usually not feasible though because the goal is for clarity and reducing feedback. many monitor mixes have a 250hz or so roll-off, so any bass frequencies of the vocal mics don't get reinforced. this of course makes any guitar sound thin and bad. no chug chug there for distortion presets.

so bringing your own speaker is the only remedy for that. of course you should work with the sound guy and make sure you aren't too loud for the room or stage and not bleeding into any mics. that's why i prefer the directionality of the RCF speaker i've recently started using.

now, if you supply your band's pa and it's your band, you can mix things however you want. but again, usually the gear used has limited Aux send capabilities and everyone ends up sharing the same mix, so does everyone want a face full of guitar? maybe not. most people can't feel or play their guitar well if their monitor send is mixed like a CD or even a good FOH mix. guitars are typically SO far behind the vocals, brought up only for leads etc. but if you can play like that, that's great for stage volume.


a question for you: if many bass players DI into the FOH anyway, why do bassists bring an amp setup? why not just use the PA system?
 
bosdog said:
Using FRFR cabs in a gig for me is a no brainer. I run my Axe through the PA at all gigs but a lot of sound comes from the stage. If people are standing in front of the band they hear the stage volume as much as if not more than the mains. Friends of mine using the Axe have experienced the same. The closer you get to the stage....the less guitar you hear in the mix until you get front and center. Then the guitar all but gets lost compared to the drums, bass, keys and live stage amps. Also, I can EQ my sound through my FRFR and not the monitor EQ which is primarily EQ for vocals. I can also point my cabs wherever I want. If the venue has enough stage room I'll use one cab on each side of the stage which gets an incredible stereo separation.
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so you use your wedge/cab facing the audience and not toward yourself for monitoring -- correct?

Using it that way makes more sense to me and instead of a FRFR you can use a real cab as well for this application.
 
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