Why place delay, reverb chorus etc *after* cab

M

mmpete

Experienced
Hi All

I noticed that most presets I have seen have the modulation and time based effects placed after the CAB block. In the real world, these would be between the AMP and CAB Blocks (well in the FX loop before power amp). Is there any reason for doing this ?

Thx, Peter
 
I don't believe there is any specific reason. Maybe just to show that everything is possible in the digital domain.

I'd build the chain just as in the real world :)
 
well some guys put reverb after the fact in the studio. Eric Johnson used to run a live rig like that, with jbl monitors and a big giant mess. I always put my cab block at the end of the chain, verb and delay first. I try to replicate what I would do sitting in my room with my 4x12 if I still used one. everything is before the cab in that situation.

No right or wrong way, just options.
 
Both good points. I haven't heard any real difference in the sound one way or the other and just wondered if there was a technical reason. I guess not. Thanks guys.
 
It makes no difference for the sound, whether you place the CAB block before or after wet effects.

There may be good reasons to do different things: If you want a dry signal (with cab processing) for recording, You will want to tap the dry signal before the amp block. If you are running your FX send to a power amp and cab on stage, and main outs to FOH, you want your effects to go to the FX loop but not the CAB - In this case, you would put the CAB block at the end of the chain.
 
mmpete said:
Hi All. I noticed that most presets I have seen have the modulation and time based effects placed after the CAB block. In the real world, these would be between the AMP and CAB Blocks (well in the FX loop before power amp). Is there any reason for doing this ? Thx, Peter
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In the "real world", people run all sorts of effects chains. As far back as the early 80's I've seen players split the signal and use one amp for the core tones and one or more other amps for independently amplifying the reverb and delay: (Pat Metheny for example). Luckily for us, the AX8 can easily do pre, post and parallel: so, whatever works. Having specific space/time effects after cab approach to stock presets presents a more hi-fi/studio sound since the effects are applied to the final amp tone and are not filtered by the cab emulation.

Edit: There are so many variables. Some effects combinations will be enhanced - being desirably glued together by a particular cabinet: but other cabinets or effects combinations may seem dull or flat in the same chain.
 
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mmpete said:
Hi All

I noticed that most presets I have seen have the modulation and time based effects placed after the CAB block. In the real world, these would be between the AMP and CAB Blocks (well in the FX loop before power amp). Is there any reason for doing this ?

Thx, Peter
Click to expand...
this comes up a lot. there is little to no difference with effects before or after the Cab block.

http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2...Position_of_effects_and_CAB_block_on_the_grid

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/classic-signal-chain-vs-the-axe-fx-approach.99154/page-3
 
All creativity aside, if you think about why delay and reverb units were invented, it makes sense. They were invented to simulate physical environments. So, you play your guitar through an amp/cab, and the sound does cool things in a room/back yard/stadium, etc - and people invented devices to simulate that. So, the time-based effects "naturally" belong after the cab. Of course, putting physical reverb devices after the cab in real life would be just ridiculous except in very controlled environments, so no one does that.
 
The cab will react to different input levels if you use the "pre" or motor drive controls. Then there's a tiny difference. For example, does the delay repeat make the preamp distort a bit, therefore changing the sound. Just a bare bones cab IR doesn't care about levels, so the result is the same, 1+1=2.
 
The only difference I could see....and I could be completely wrong on this, so please correct me if I am....by placing them before the cab block or after the cab block would be frequencies created. I only say that if you are someone who uses the Hi Cut in the Cab Block. Let's say you use a 6500 Hi Cut in the Cab Block, but throw a Delay and Reverb after them at the end of your chain. Well, depending on the Delay and Reverb type, you could end up recreating some of those frequencies you were trying to cut with the Cab Block. Now, you should be able to go into the Tone section of the Reverb or Delay block and use the Hi Cut there as well, but you have to remember to do that. If you place them before the Cab Block in your chain, then the Hi Cut in the Cab Block will take care of all those frequencies for you in a single spot.

Like I said, I could be completely wrong with that train of thought.....but that is the only thing that I could think would be different depending on where you place those blocks.
 
Tom Best said:
All creativity aside, if you think about why delay and reverb units were invented, it makes sense. They were invented to simulate physical environments. So, you play your guitar through an amp/cab, and the sound does cool things in a room/back yard/stadium, etc - and people invented devices to simulate that. So, the time-based effects "naturally" belong after the cab. Of course, putting physical reverb devices after the cab in real life would be just ridiculous except in very controlled environments, so no one does that.
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I believe Larry Carlton does that - He mices up his amp speaker, and then the miced signal goes to a mic pre and FX processor, and then the sound goes into two active monitors (and all three signals goes to FOH as well). But that is not your typical weekend warrior setup - Although, I have seen weekend warriors with 4 4x12 cabinets - To those guys, the Larry Carlton setup would seem small :)
 
In a pedalboard-emulation approach, we're probably accustomed to having all our effects before the amp. In the studio, I always liked to experiment with placement / order, and most of the time I'd put modulation effects after the amp mic. One of the great things about the AxeFX is being able to move the blocks around at will. It lets us easily do this kind of experimentation to assess the impact of order and placement.
 
ssmorga78 said:
The only difference I could see....and I could be completely wrong on this, so please correct me if I am....by placing them before the cab block or after the cab block would be frequencies created. I only say that if you are someone who uses the Hi Cut in the Cab Block. Let's say you use a 6500 Hi Cut in the Cab Block, but throw a Delay and Reverb after them at the end of your chain. Well, depending on the Delay and Reverb type, you could end up recreating some of those frequencies you were trying to cut with the Cab Block. Now, you should be able to go into the Tone section of the Reverb or Delay block and use the Hi Cut there as well, but you have to remember to do that. If you place them before the Cab Block in your chain, then the Hi Cut in the Cab Block will take care of all those frequencies for you in a single spot.

Like I said, I could be completely wrong with that train of thought.....but that is the only thing that I could think would be different depending on where you place those blocks.
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One risk with the Cab block at the end is collapsing everything to mono. If your FOH setup is mono anyway, that's fine, but if you are specifically trying to send out stereo verbs, you'll want to make sure the Cab block is set to stereo.
 
philipacamaniac said:
One risk with the Cab block at the end is collapsing everything to mono. If your FOH setup is mono anyway, that's fine, but if you are specifically trying to send out stereo verbs, you'll want to make sure the Cab block is set to stereo.
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That's true. I only run in Mono as no one really gets the benefit of running stereo in a Live situation(or at least in my experience it seemed pointless to do so Live). I did not think about the Studio aspect of it though......I don't do much recording, but for Studio use I would want to keep it stereo.
 
you know, i used to think "no sense in doing stereo since not everyone is in the center of your signal." but even if both speakers are fully on your left, for example, you can still get a richer sound from stereo just since there are different signals happening, depending on the actual preset and physical space. so it isn't completely worthless, but yeah, most people won't get the "correct" panning. still can add a dimension to the sound regardless.
 
I'm really glad this was asked and cleared up. I've always set things up with the amp and fx loop approach. I was always curious if there was going to be something funky going on if you're doing the FOH and onstage cab setup. This shit's pretty fucking rad! Options, at last!
 
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