Which PA would you rather have?

lwknives

lwknives

Power User
Just for fun,

Mains 2 JBL PRX835Ws with 2 EV ELX115Ps as monitors

or

Mains 2 EV ELX115Ps on Yamaha DXS15 subs with 2 Yamaha DXR10s as monitors?

Which would be better for the Audience?

Which would be better for the band?

This is assuming all instruments go direct and the band was using Edrums so all the stage sound would come from the monitors.
 
what does "better" mean? how big is the band? how big is the room? how loud do you play? drums? what instruments?
 
Louder, more clarity, nice bass sound. Maybe 2 guitars, keys, full electric drum kit, bass guitar 3 vocals. Everything from family gatherings to outdoor venues. Not crazy loud. Sort of just generic cover band stuff.
I'm not looking to purchase right now just trying to start conversation.
 
I myself would not have single 15'' full range speakers when running 15'' subs. 2 monitors are not enough for the whole band to monitor what is being played. pretty hard these days to keep the band happy with 4 monitor mixes.
 
paranoid said:
I myself would not have single 15'' full range speakers when running 15'' subs. 2 monitors are not enough for the whole band to monitor what is being played. pretty hard these days to keep the band happy with 4 monitor mixes.
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Cool beans, why would you not want to run a 15 inch main with a 15 inch sub?
I'm wanting to try something a bit different with the monitors. I'm gonna try and put them on stands kind of like side fills. Might work on small to medium stages. I'm thinking with all direct instruments it may work fine.
 
lwknives said:
?..why would you not want to run a 15 inch main with a 15 inch sub?
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15" speakers tend to get beamy in the mids. And you've got your subs covering the low end. No need for the added bas ps extension of 15s, and you don't necessarily want them competing with the subs.
 
Rex said:
15" speakers tend to get beamy in the mids. And you've got your subs covering the low end. No need for the added bas ps extension of 15s, and you don't necessarily want them competing with the subs.
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When running subs you will need to setup a x-over which will make sure there's no competition. That said there's no use for the extra low end the 15" can deliver in such a configuration, they only add weight. Still might be a good idea for occasional gigs where you don't use the subs.
 
lwknives said:
Cool beans, why would you not want to run a 15 inch main with a 15 inch sub?
I'm wanting to try something a bit different with the monitors. I'm gonna try and put them on stands kind of like side fills. Might work on small to medium stages. I'm thinking with all direct instruments it may work fine.
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As @Rex and @ChristThePhone posted, it doesn't make sense to have heavy 15'' mains when you will either be doubling the lows or crossing the lows out when running subs. with subs 10'' mains with horns will cover the needed area with less size and weight, and more then likely will be more clear. As for the monitors you can get by with side fills but most band mates want there instrument and vocal louder in the mix so they can hear themselves. with only 2 monitors there will be some volume wars.
 
Depending on room size, I'd look for more low end from either of your chosen options for running everything direct.
A pair of 12" tops and 18" subs would be nice for foh, up to maybe 100-150 people. (something like prx or dxr range should be decent).

But I'd expect if running direct, you'll need one monitor per person. You might get away with 10" (dxr10) for guitars and vocal, but drums and bass will be happier if you can get them a 12" or 15"
You'll also want a mixer that can give everybody their own mix ideally.
Don't forget the cost of good cables too ( power and signal ), and stands and cases and mic's.
It all adds up very quickly.

It's taken me a while to get it all, but I run 15's over 18's for FOH (JBL VP tops, SRX subs) and 5 X 12" monitors (JBL SRX and Yamaha DSR 112), with an x32r mixer.
Both my bands love using it, and I get a little bit of work from local bands that don't have gear for some of their bigger shows.

For me I've loved going to my own mix last year, and really noticed the stage volume come down by giving everyone their own mix (and leaving my old amp at home)
 
Callan said:
Depending on room size, I'd look for more low end from either of your chosen options for running everything direct.
A pair of 12" tops and 18" subs would be nice for foh, up to maybe 100-150 people. (something like prx or dxr range should be decent).

But I'd expect if running direct, you'll need one monitor per person. You might get away with 10" (dxr10) for guitars and vocal, but drums and bass will be happier if you can get them a 12" or 15"
You'll also want a mixer that can give everybody their own mix ideally.
Don't forget the cost of good cables too ( power and signal ), and stands and cases and mic's.
It all adds up very quickly.

It's taken me a while to get it all, but I run 15's over 18's for FOH (JBL VP tops, SRX subs) and 5 X 12" monitors (JBL SRX and Yamaha DSR 112), with an x32r mixer.
Both my bands love using it, and I get a little bit of work from local bands that don't have gear for some of their bigger shows.

For me I've loved going to my own mix last year, and really noticed the stage volume come down by giving everyone their own mix (and leaving my old amp at home)
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What is your stage volume like? How big are your stages?
Do you think that getting more monitors is more important than good quality monitors? Would you suggest getting 4 lower end speakers over 2 really nice ones?
I could get a midrange 18" sub and 12" tops for the same cost as the high end PRX 3 way speaker. Do you think a sub is that much better than the 15 in the three way JBL?
 
lwknives said:
What is your stage volume like? How big are your stages?
Do you think that getting more monitors is more important than good quality monitors? Would you suggest getting 4 lower end speakers over 2 really nice ones?
I could get a midrange 18" sub and 12" tops for the same cost as the high end PRX 3 way speaker. Do you think a sub is that much better than the 15 in the three way JBL?
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Our stage volume is OK, under control, but our drummer can make a bit of noise.
Stage size varies wildly. From being jammed in a corner inside, to the back of a semi-trailer outside at a car show.

If your stages are small and not many people sing, you might get away with only 2 monitors.
@xrist04 alluded to it, but what is the budget for this? And what does that need to include (stands, cables, mixer, etc.)

Me personally, I got the monitors I have now by starting with 2, then a 3rd, then a pair of DSR's to make 5 (or to use as fills/spares/different location, etc.). Putting the money I made from gigs into building my PA.
My first monitors were JBL EON's and they were CRAP! (IMO). Prone to feedback, sounded horrible at volume, very muddy like a blanket over them. So from personal experience, don't go cheap. The Alto's seem to have an OK name for a budget monitor, but I've not got any personal experience.
Maybe your drummer who runs direct can supply their own monitor (even headphones) to save you some upfront costs?

I had the PRX615's for a while as my FOH (with a single 618xlf sub) which did work quite good.
Without the sub, I wouldn't have wanted to run both bass and kick through the tops, they just didn't have the impact I was after (I want to feel the bass and kick in my chest)

I'm expecting that impact you will also miss with the 835's, although you should have a nicer midrange and smoother around the crossover areas compared with my 615's.

One last thing to consider, although it might not apply, I do a heap of Acoustic shows as well. Single 12" on a stand for FOH and another as monitor. I would hate to carry a 3 way box into a small cafe that only holds 40-50 people. DXR10's would be fantastic at this though so you might be OK depending on your monitor choice.



I've put below some photos from earlier this year if you're interested at all (different bands).
The first one we played a 30th to about 100 people. Bass was direct, only kick and snare got mic'd - it sounded great (full, loud, clear) Bass player was happy to have his own monitor and mix. He would have been fighting with the singer or me if he was sharing a monitor/mix.

The second we played a fundraiser to 750 people. Everything was running through FOH, but we still had a bass amp on stage.
3 foldback up front, drummer on IEM. Bass player didn't have his own monitor, but had his amp to be able to hear himself.
IMO there still wasn't enough low end for the big room, but nobody else seemed to mind to much. It was more a cocktail function than a rock show anyway.

Screen Shot 2017-10-04 at 10.57.49 am.png Screen Shot 2017-10-04 at 10.57.09 am.png
 
I would go for 12" tops and 18" subs.
You don't need to spend the extra coin on 15" tops. 12s will sound excellent since you're using subs.
If you like yamaha then go with dxr or dsr 12" tops ....and dxs 18" subs.
Do not buy cheap subs. It's a waste.

I could talk PA gear all day, so if you have questions or want alternative suggestions, just ask.
 
BBN said:
I would go for 12" tops and 18" subs.
You don't need to spend the extra coin on 15" tops. 12s will sound excellent since you're using subs.
If you like yamaha then go with dxr or dsr 12" tops ....and dxs 18" subs.
Do not buy cheap subs. It's a waste.

I could talk PA gear all day, so if you have questions or want alternative suggestions, just ask.
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have you heard the jbl srx828sp dual 18 ? thoughts?
 
200man said:
have you heard the jbl srx828sp dual 18 ? thoughts?
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I have 2 X SRX818SP's and love them. Lots of power, very musical
A single 828 is a little cheaper for the same output, but I wanted to get rid of my FOH tripods, so needed a sub for each side of the stage.
It also provides a bit of redundancy.

The SRX series is a bit of a price jump for the OP though - to go from a single PRX835 per side to a SRX812+818sp would almost triple the price ($2398 vs $5796 .. on Sweetwater MAP price) There's certainly an uplift in output, but up to the OP if it's justifiable.
The PRX 12" over 18" at $3696 still isn't as cheap as a pair of 835's, but would be a great little bar band system.
Yamaha DSR112 + DXS18 is the other contender, just north of $4k MAP.

<rant> I wish they were Australian prices - we get screwed over here </rant>
 
Maybe a little off base- especially as a Fractal user-
But if you want the best sound for the audience-

I wouldn't go direct and I wouldn't use electric drums

Every band that does this sounds the same, typically sounds week, typically isn't as tight- mixing keyboards and electric drums- and live guitars- and once again- they all sound the same- I hate walking through a casino and hearing the same sound from dozens of bands- it's like that karoke backing track with a little too much guitars sound.

And don't be afraid to be an opportunist- meaning...
Plenty of failing musicians in every town are unloading great PA gear for nothing... I would not focus on the best sound as so much as the best deal.... $1000-2000 on those yamaha monitors are a waste- someone will make an expensive napkin out of it or bad drink holder- the band or audience.... and really- if you have someone who knows what they're doing- can make it sound as good as the new stuff- or constantly adjust and improve what you have or buy to make the best out of it...

ALSO- I think you're undershooting your needs- meaning- like- with the first option (which is better) you only have 2 main speakers- it limits to what you can do- and also- since everything is direct- it's not like you have flexability to say - 'lets only plug in the vocals and kick/snare through it turn your amps up loud' for big shows or whatever- you're limited to by what you bring- so- you need to maybe buy 4 mains- or get a plan for 6- so you can think modularly- what i mean is- cover band going direct with a set PA system can only do so much or take so many gigs without needing more- and going direct gives you less wiggle room too on sounding good...

I've also never heard a system sound good to me with 2 main speakers, subs or not subs- but I can't say 99% doing live sound know what they're doing...

Get a giant used PA for pennies on the dollar and tweak/throw money at it when it needs improvement

Last- I think JBL is fairly overhyped- A lot of people say 'oh jbl is the best' and think anything with their name on it is good or sounds better than anything else out there or the cheaper stuff- I just think that just makes people spend more money than they have to. I've never heard their PA stuff sound that great- never been impressed.
 
Jeries said:
- you need to maybe buy 4 mains- or get a plan for 6
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I urge anybody thinking of having more than one main/foh per side of the stage to look up the terms comb filtering (for more than one box covering the same area) and dash array (for the kind of line array looking systems of maybe 2 or 3 boxes stacked vertically).

The exception being if you have tops that have a narrow horizontal pattern, such as srx835p and the like, and you use multiple boxes to cover a wider area than possible with a single box.

In all honestly though, if you can't get enough level out of a pair of dsr112's (at the right height, facing the audience including slanted down of required, paired with suitable subs), then it's time to hire somebody in to take care of your sound for you..
I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, but gigs of more than say 300 people you want to be sure to sound good. Hard to do from the stage in a room big enough for 300+

Jeries said:
Get a giant used PA for pennies on the dollar
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Great advice here, there are some bargains to be had in the used market to get you started. You're not the first to want to build a PA for your band.
 
Callan said:
@xrist04 alluded to it, but what is the budget for this? And what does that need to include (stands, cables, mixer, etc.)
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Lots of great info there! thanks!

This is mostly just me trying to learn about PA systems, I need a PA before I start a band so I am trying to learn as much as I can now. That being said I kind of want to stay close to $3000.00 for FOH and monitors. I already have enough cables, I'm just researching speakers. Also, I already have a pair of EV ELX115Ps so I just need extra FOH reinforcement and monitors.

My hope is to get a really great stage sound that follows OSHA rules for sound levels. I was thinking that using stereo side fills would give everybody a studio mix that sounded almost as good as FOH.
 
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