Which FRFR? Is it worth it?

bustedstring said:
I'm using a pair of Friedman ASM 12s with my FM3 and the Fender amps all sound like they have a blanket over them. Been thinking of ditching the ASMs and replace them with something different.
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I have 2 ASC-10s and I do not get that boomy low end. Use the low cut 100hz filter on the back, dial to taste and I get a great guitar cab sound out them. I have 2 buddies who have the 12s and they seem to be able to dial up some pretty good sounds out of them as well, although very heavy.
 
RobbyDeeMusic said:
I have 2 ASC-10s and I do not get that boomy low end. Use the low cut 100hz filter on the back, dial to taste and I get a great guitar cab sound out them. I have 2 buddies who have the 12s and they seem to be able to dial up some pretty good sounds out of them as well, although very heavy.
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Thanks for the reply. I'm already using the low cut switch and EQing things but still it is a bit woofy. I don't see a whole lot of folks on here using the Friedman FRFR. I originally got them for my Kemper and it was so-so, then tried the Kemper Kabs which made things better. But I'm selling my Kemper since I bought my FM3 so the point is moot.

First World problems . . . they're enough to drive ya nuts sometimes. :cool:
 
Jbeland said:
I’m considering an FRFR speaker but I currently have the legacy K 12 speakers. My FM three sounds best through my studio monitors and I find the K 12 response to be not very flat. Thoughts? I just want to use one or two for some stage noise like a cab.
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If you haven't played thru a standard V30(or other guitar speaker) and a guitar cab... you should try it. The QSC K12 is one of the better PA speakers, and if that is not working for you, not sure another PA speaker is going be much better.
 
chrisjnyc said:
If you haven't played thru a standard V30(or other guitar speaker) and a guitar cab... you should try it. The QSC K12 is one of the better PA speakers, and if that is not working for you, not sure another PA speaker is going be much better.
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This.

If you want a cab for stage sound, try a real cab.

Also, if it's just stage sound/monitoring, lack of flatness isn't going to be noticed much.
 
I have 2 passive Atomic Reactor Cabs powered by Matrix GT1kfx - cat's meow a dozen years ago - now those cabs go for cheap I guess. Not flat but recently I went deep on matching them to my Yamaha HS8s using a reference mic to determkne an eq compensation - still not conclusive but I'm getting them sounding pretty good across varying tones - they are obtaining the character of diverse Axe patches while also sounding quite guitar cabby.
 
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sprint said:
I have 2 passive Atomic Reactor Cabs powered by Matrix GT1kfx - cat's meow a dozen years ago - now those cabs go for cheap I guess. Not flat but recently I went deep on matching them to my Yamaha HS8s using a reference mic to determkne an eq compensation - still not conclusive but I'm getting them sounding pretty good across varying tones - they are obtaining the character of diverse Axe patches while also sounding quite guitar cabby.
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I used to have an Atomic FR 1x12 combo and I really liked it and in hindsight should have kept it. What kind of compensation curves do you end up seeing?
 
I started with an fm3 about 6 months ago. I primarily use it with headphones (ath-m40x) while playing with friends over the internet using a program called solocontutti. I have been very happy with the fm3 with headphones and its incremental improvements even over this short time.

I have also played the fm3 through a 12” headrush frfr for playing in the room. The headrush is a great value but (to me) qualitatively the sound of the fm3 amps/cabs are different through the headrush than from what i hear in my headphones. The headrush is light, inexpensive, and i am very happy to have it, but the sound in headphones is a bit more of what i expect.

I also have an old but maintained 18 watt hifi tube amp (an old Williamson design based on 6l6s). I have use the fm3 amp sims, the 18w amp, and regular guitar cabs and have enjoyed that a great deal. Of course I can’t compare that sound with what I hear in headphones since my cabs are different from the fm3 cab sims.

I recently purchased a celestion f12-x200 frfr speaker and for fun put it in half of a 2x12 cab that had specs very close to those of the celestion proposed design. The 2x12 was already really 2 1x12. I closed the back for the frfr side and also added a 4” port. With this solution i found the fm3s amp/cab sims sounded very similar whether i used headphones or the frfr speaker.

For me having very similar sounds with both the headphones and frfr is very useful. I feel more confident moving between headphones for the internet and the frfr for live jams and no longer feel the need to play through a non-frfr guitar cab. It opens up the world of amp/cab sim combinations which is an important part of the fm3 and i am sure other fractal products.

I know it is subjective, but i would be interested in hearing about how others would compare their headphone vs their frfr experiences.
 
laxu said:
I used to have an Atomic FR 1x12 combo and I really liked it and in hindsight should have kept it. What kind of compensation curves do you end up seeing?
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I 1st tone matched in Logic's MatchEQ with reference mic captures of pink noise thru the Atomic and HS8. Before matching I tweaked both captures a bit based on the reference mic's published frequency response to compensate for some small bumps in the higher frequencies. Then I replicated the resultant EQmatch compensating curve over to the outboard EQ pictured below and tweaked a bit more by ear. This EQ is dedicated to the Atomics which have always needed "help". Range on the EQ is set to +-6db (so the curve is not as extreme as it looks) and the Atomic's tweeter control on the back is set to 2OClock. Sounds waay better than any other curve I've tried to determine solely by ear, and a few recommended by other Atomic users. The match captures were not ideal as I would have picked up room reflections. I'm buiding a box that's inner walled with old carpet and will try the captures of both again inside that to see what it gives me with room out of the picture. Tried Axefx TM which worked simîarly but I like to be able to quickly tweak the curve.

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bustedstring said:
Thanks for the reply. I'm already using the low cut switch and EQing things but still it is a bit woofy. I don't see a whole lot of folks on here using the Friedman FRFR. I originally got them for my Kemper and it was so-so, then tried the Kemper Kabs which made things better. But I'm selling my Kemper since I bought my FM3 so the point is moot.

First World problems . . . they're enough to drive ya nuts sometimes. :cool:
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I went from a Headrush 112 to a Friedman ASM 112......and straight back to the Headrush - way better!
I now have a CLR which I love, but I still rate the Headrush very highly and would be happy to gig with one again - NOT the Friedman.
 
jrx said:
I know it is subjective, but i would be interested in hearing about how others would compare their headphone vs their frfr experiences.
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I found correction curves for my phones from Jaakkopasanen on GitHub. This for my Senn Drop 58X. Made a GEQ block for the phones and made some presets. Bypassed the eq and into the speakers, and it wasn’t too far off, but still needed some tweaking. The curves made my phones too bright in comparison to my speakers. I gave up on that and don’t use the eq anymore. I just wing it. Once you’re used to the differences you can get pretty close. I have 2 speakers, the Headrush 112 and a Celestion F12, same as you. They don’t sound exactly alike even though they’re both billed as FRFR. In stereo they work pretty good together. I prefer the F12, it’s a great sounding speaker. I have no idea if my stuff is flat but it sounds good to me and other people. As for playing through phones vs speakers I’ll take speakers every time. I use phones quite a bit though out of necessity. I don’t love them but I like to play late.
 
Headrush 108 user here and with @WKSmith 's amazing Para EQ settings (search off his user name for the thread - I think its called Flattening the HeadRush Curve) - its made them totally useable - I have 2 so plenty of Stereo Goodness to get lost in and they are LOUD!! like drown out the drummer type loud if you need them to be - I use as foldback monitors for the full-on FOH large stage gigs I do - mainly for a bit of feel (and feedback!)and backup to my IEM's. I can also turn them around and use them as trad backline if required.

Great bits of kit.

As an FYI, I have a few real amps (MKV Mesa, 5153, Shiva) that have essentially been replaced by the modelling on the FM3 and the sheer portability and power of these little 108's.
 
skolacki said:
I found correction curves for my phones from Jaakkopasanen on GitHub. This for my Senn Drop 58X. Made a GEQ block for the phones and made some presets. Bypassed the eq and into the speakers, and it wasn’t too far off, but still needed some tweaking. The curves made my phones too bright in comparison to my speakers. I gave up on that and don’t use the eq anymore. I just wing it. Once you’re used to the differences you can get pretty close. I have 2 speakers, the Headrush 112 and a Celestion F12, same as you. They don’t sound exactly alike even though they’re both billed as FRFR. In stereo they work pretty good together. I prefer the F12, it’s a great sounding speaker. I have no idea if my stuff is flat but it sounds good to me and other people. As for playing through phones vs speakers I’ll take speakers every time. I use phones quite a bit though out of necessity. I don’t love them but I like to play late.
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Most likely your phones were the most correct and your other setups are not. The F12 is not intended to be flat in the first place and the Headrush is not flat due to its design and price point.

If you had also room corrected your Headrush then maybe the corrected headphones and room corrected Headrush would end up translating better. But without the ability to take room correction measurements that becomes tricky and of course once you move the Headrush to a gig that all goes out of the window. I would probably try applying the "flattening the Headrush curve" thread corrections to the Headrush anyway just to get it closer to flat response and see how that compares with the headphones.
 
skolacki said:
I found correction curves for my phones from Jaakkopasanen on GitHub. This for my Senn Drop 58X. Made a GEQ block for the phones and made some presets. Bypassed the eq and into the speakers, and it wasn’t too far off, but still needed some tweaking. The curves made my phones too bright in comparison to my speakers. I gave up on that and don’t use the eq anymore. I just wing it. Once you’re used to the differences you can get pretty close. I have 2 speakers, the Headrush 112 and a Celestion F12, same as you. They don’t sound exactly alike even though they’re both billed as FRFR. In stereo they work pretty good together. I prefer the F12, it’s a great sounding speaker. I have no idea if my stuff is flat but it sounds good to me and other people. As for playing through phones vs speakers I’ll take speakers every time. I use phones quite a bit though out of necessity. I don’t love them but I like to play late.
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Good effort with the geq block. All in all, I also tend to leave eq alone and prefer kit that i don’t feel needs to be tweaked. I also like the sound of the f12 better than the headphones, a bit more detail perhaps it is easier to hear it at loud volumes.

Responding to some other peoples comments, it isn’t so much that i am thinking the headphones or speaker are identically flat. I just liked the sound of both and found them to be close without tweaking.

There is something about the materials of a cab, wood vs plastic, that affects the tone of a speaker. That may be something you can deal with using eq but it must be very complex. Again i also very much appreciate the headrush. Great value, usable, and fun but i tended to use a guitar cab (tone tubby chicago blue) instead if it. I now prefer to play the f12 over my guitar cab even though i really like the cab.
 
laxu said:
Most likely your phones were the most correct and your other setups are not. The F12 is not intended to be flat in the first place and the Headrush is not flat due to its design and price point.

If you had also room corrected your Headrush then maybe the corrected headphones and room corrected Headrush would end up translating better. But without the ability to take room correction measurements that becomes tricky and of course once you move the Headrush to a gig that all goes out of the window. I would probably try applying the "flattening the Headrush curve" thread corrections to the Headrush anyway just to get it closer to flat response and see how that compares with the headphones.
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I’m sure you’re right. The 58X sounds great with recorded music. No treated room for me. I set up in my living room. Vaulted ceilings. Get a lot of wall effect. Sounds good. And really good when I can turn up the F12. I’m not concerned with accuracy to tell the truth. I just want it to sound good. Not gigging, just some guys to jam with right now and not recording. So if it’s not flat it’s not a big deal to me. The phones get me close. On the AC20 I can dial in the speaker tone with just the hi cut.
 
WelshLukather said:
Headrush 108 user here and with @WKSmith 's amazing Para EQ settings (search off his user name for the thread - I think its called Flattening the HeadRush Curve) - its made them totally useable - I have 2 so plenty of Stereo Goodness to get lost in and they are LOUD!! like drown out the drummer type loud if you need them to be - I use as foldback monitors for the full-on FOH large stage gigs I do - mainly for a bit of feel (and feedback!)and backup to my IEM's. I can also turn them around and use them as trad backline if required.

Great bits of kit.

As an FYI, I have a few real amps (MKV Mesa, 5153, Shiva) that have essentially been replaced by the modelling on the FM3 and the sheer portability and power of these little 108's.
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Ditto, @WKSmith dialed the EQ settings on the 108, I have two running in stereo. They sound great and keep up with the drums no problem. They are cheap too compared to most others.
 
The ASC-10s are even better when you tilt them up at you. Great monitors. I've had mine for a long time now and don't even have a care to use anything else.
 
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