What do you think of what this guy said?

C

Chrose1201

Inspired
Quick little background. I play in a southern/classic rock band. I was using a Friedman Dirty Shirley 40W but it couldn't really nail the cleans I needed for some songs, so I bought an FM3. I bought the Cooper Carter tutorial but found that I have a tin ear and I am not good at tweaking so I bought the Austin Buddy Live Gold and settled on the 59 Bassguy preset. I use the single coil scenes for my Les Paul and everything was good. But I felt like something was missing so I worked with Rosh Roslin for a preset. He built me 3 scenes. 1) Clean with a 65 Bassman, 2) Edge of breakup with a JTM45 and 3) a Rock tone with a Capt. Hook 2A. They sound good and work for my gigs, but after my last gig I was still not happy with how everything sounded. I started to look back to tube amps. My Friedman still doesn't cut it, but I liked what I was hearing from the Amplified Nation amps. I started a thread on a forum looking for input and a guy said this: "
Before you buy or sell anything, take that FM3 and run it into any of your tube amp's return on the effects loop. Best of both worlds, modeler to mimic varieties of tones + tube amp dynamics/balls. You may get better tones running it into the front, so try that too. You may need a volume/input pedal to control volume of the modeler. I should but have not bought one yet.
I did this with my L6 Stomp XL into my DSL100H and it covers everything we play. Yeah, still not exact but closer for me.

It sounds like he's suggesting essentially to use the FM3 as a pedalboard of sorts but instead of for effects, using it for the presets. I have a SD Powerstage 170 for the power amp, so wouldn't this suggestion be rather redundant? I also run the FM3 into a 1-12 FRFR cab.

But I wanted to run this by smarter people than me. Thanks
 
Just another option, though it can be a good one.

In my case my band is all DI'd using IEM's (silent stage), but recently I had to to sub for a friend who got COVID, and his band is a traditional backline band, so I plugged my FM3 into the FX return of my old modded Super Champ (15 blazing watts of 6V6 power in a 1 X 12 open back), and it really sounded awesome for basic edge of breakup tones up to using a pedal to push the amp models, for cajun, country swing, delta blues, boogie woogie and early rock and roll styles).

In any case, I had clearly forgotten how good the FM3 can sound into a tube power amp and guitar cab, it simply sounded great (outside, not even "in the room" LOL!).

The pro's are some tube warmth and guitar cabs and speakers (though you don't need to drive the tube amp to it's sweet spot unless desired, so your SPL is much more controllable letting the FM3 create the tube power amp's sweet spot!), the only cons are more weight/equipment to carry.
 
Last edited:
DJD100 said:
Just another option, though it can be a good one.

In my case my band is all DI'd using IEM's (silent stage), but recently I had to to sub for a friend who got COVID, and his band is a traditional backline band, so I plugged my FM3 into the FX return of my old modded Super Champ (15 blazing watts of 6V6 power in a 1 X 12 open back), and it really sounded awesome for basic edge of breakup tones up to using a pedal to push the amp models, for cajun, country swing, delta blues, boogie woogie and early rock and roll styles).

In any case, I had clearly forgotten how good the FM3 can sound into a tube power amp and guitar cab, it simply sounded great (outside, not even "in the room" LOL!).

The pro's are some tube warmth and guitar cabs and speakers (though you don't need to drive the tube amp to it's sweet spot unless desired, so your SPL is much more controllable letting the FM3 create the tube power amp's sweet spot!), the only cons is more weight/equipment to carry.
Click to expand...
Very interesting. But if you were do to use a guitar cab you would need to turn off the IR's right since you're not going into an FRFR cab. Would it be defeating the purpose if you ran the FM3 into the tube amp and speaker out to an FRFR since the preset is modeled with the IR? The only tube amp I have would be the 40W Friedman DS40.
 
You can try anything you want, the main problem is that you really have to know what tone is in your head.

I know it sounds maybe foolish but you can work one to one with ultra qualified people like Rosh and never be happy cause you didn’t really pictured the tone you really want.
 
I've had much better success going into the front of an amp with a cab vs using the effects return. When using the FM3/Axe III amp modeling, I have the guitar amp set to a bold clean tone, just before edge of breakup. All of the presets, including clean tones, sound great using this configuration. The only thing that I've discovered that has been consistent from amp to amp is the need to have the guitar amp's treble turned down quite a bit.

It's not going to hurt anything to try it with IRs as well as with or without the Power Amp Sim active. The only thing that matters is if it sounds good.
 
If you already have a tube amplifier it is worth trying. Part of the magic of using a tube power amp rather than using a solid state power amp is the impedance relationship between the speakers and the amp's output transformer (impedance curve).

The FM3 models this, but when you're using a solid state amplifier with a guitar cabinet you have to get the resonant frequency of the modeled speaker impedance curve on the FM3 to match your exact speaker cabinet for it to have the right sound and response. There are ways to measure that (I used a DATS V3 for my measurements), but most people don't have the tools.

The other thing that tube power amps usually do well is that they have plenty of power available for high energy transients. Small solid state amplifiers lack power to do this properly and they might lack weight and impact in the low frequency range at higher volumes. This all depends on the specific amplifiers used, so YMMV.

There are some downsides to using a tube amplifier as the power amp. Guitar oriented tube power amplifiers are going to color the tone a bit, so you're compromising the accuracy of the amp models. They're heavy and expensive to purchase / maintain.
 
Chrose1201 said:
Very interesting. But if you were do to use a guitar cab you would need to turn off the IR's right since you're not going into an FRFR cab. Would it be defeating the purpose if you ran the FM3 into the tube amp and speaker out to an FRFR since the preset is modeled with the IR? The only tube amp I have would be the 40W Friedman DS40.
Click to expand...
In my case I sent FOH a complete tone with IR via Out 1, and then used the tube amp as a stage monitor minus the Cab Block/IR via Out 2.

Guys above are saying you have to get the cabs rez freq and all, and to be as accurate as possible that's true, but the reality is you don't have to worry about it and you can just plug it in and adjust the tonestack etc until it sounds good too.
 
If you like the sound then its good - whatever floats your boat is "correct", but if accuracy to the model is the goal, then there are key considerations that I think are important wrt to sending an amp model through a traditional amp fx return + traditional cab. Example: If I send a Vox based model into the return of a DSL combo:
  • With power amp modelling off:
    • The DSL combo power amp section likely won't compress anything like the modelled Vox power section would have.
    • The DSL combo power amp section likely won't color the sound anything like the modelled Vox power section would have.
    • The DSL combo power amp section won't likely interact with the Vox model's preamp in the same way as the modelled Vox power amp section would have.
    • The DSL's stock speaker probably won't sound anything like the Celestion Blue / Silver IRs you'd likely pair with that Vox amp model.
    • At lower volume into the DSL return it might work somewhat better since the DSL power section will stay more clean, but probably still sketchy wrt accuracy, and more sketchy as volume into the DSL power section increases and it starts to compress.
  • With power amp modelling on:
    • The DSL combo's significant power amp section character will overlay the Vox model's active poweramp section thus skewing accuracy of the model (+again, more so if the DSL power section starts getting pushed).
I run models thru my tube amp returns + real cabs (p.a. modelling on at low volume thru the real amp power sections / p.a. modelling off at hi volume thru the real amp power sections) and get great sounds that I love, but imo, model accuracy is going out the window, particularly with dissimilar amp model / real amp combinations while more compatible combinations will likely yield better results (ie Brit800 model into DSL return). To keep the Axfx models accurate, hi headroom monitoring with low coloration is the bee's knee's.
 
Last edited:
Chrose1201 said:
Quick little background. I play in a southern/classic rock band. I was using a Friedman Dirty Shirley 40W but it couldn't really nail the cleans I needed for some songs, so I bought an FM3. I bought the Cooper Carter tutorial but found that I have a tin ear and I am not good at tweaking so I bought the Austin Buddy Live Gold and settled on the 59 Bassguy preset. I use the single coil scenes for my Les Paul and everything was good. But I felt like something was missing so I worked with Rosh Roslin for a preset. He built me 3 scenes. 1) Clean with a 65 Bassman, 2) Edge of breakup with a JTM45 and 3) a Rock tone with a Capt. Hook 2A. They sound good and work for my gigs, but after my last gig I was still not happy with how everything sounded. I started to look back to tube amps. My Friedman still doesn't cut it, but I liked what I was hearing from the Amplified Nation amps. I started a thread on a forum looking for input and a guy said this: "
Before you buy or sell anything, take that FM3 and run it into any of your tube amp's return on the effects loop. Best of both worlds, modeler to mimic varieties of tones + tube amp dynamics/balls. You may get better tones running it into the front, so try that too. You may need a volume/input pedal to control volume of the modeler. I should but have not bought one yet.
I did this with my L6 Stomp XL into my DSL100H and it covers everything we play. Yeah, still not exact but closer for me.

It sounds like he's suggesting essentially to use the FM3 as a pedalboard of sorts but instead of for effects, using it for the presets. I have a SD Powerstage 170 for the power amp, so wouldn't this suggestion be rather redundant? I also run the FM3 into a 1-12 FRFR cab.

But I wanted to run this by smarter people than me. Thanks
Click to expand...
I suck at manipulating IR’s. Always using a parametric eq to shape the tone before it gets too the frfr and feeling like I was constantly juggling the amp settings and the IR to get the tone right. I ended up using no IR’s.
I use a 2x12 Mesa 120w cab w/V30’s. The amps and effects of the FM3 sound awesome. I don’t record but I get the amp in the room I’m looking for. My frfr cab is collecting dust.
 
Also, you can mimic a tube slave amp setup by using the resistive speaker impedance curve in your amp model, then on into your tube power section and cab.
 
sprint said:
If you like the sound then its good - whatever floats your boat is "correct", but if accuracy to the model is the goal, then there are key considerations that I think are important wrt to sending an amp model through a traditional amp fx return + traditional cab. Example: If I send a Vox based model into the return of a DSL combo:
  • With power amp modelling off:
    • The DSL combo power amp section likely won't compress anything like the modelled Vox power section would have.
    • The DSL combo power amp section likely won't color the sound anything like the modelled Vox power section would have.
    • The DSL combo power amp section won't likely interact with the Vox model's preamp in the same way as the modelled Vox power amp section would have.
    • The DSL's stock speaker probably won't sound anything like the Celestion Blue / Silver IRs you'd likely pair with that Vox amp model.
    • At lower volume into the DSL return it might work somewhat better since the DSL power section will stay more clean, but probably still sketchy wrt accuracy, and more sketchy as volume into the DSL power section increases and it starts to compress.
  • With power amp modelling on:
    • The DSL combo's significant power amp section character will overlay the Vox model's active poweramp section thus skewing accuracy of the model (+again, more so if the DSL power section starts getting pushed).
I run models thru my tube amp returns + real cabs (p.a. modelling on at low volume thru the real amp power sections / p.a. modelling off at hi volume thru the real amp power sections) and get great sounds that I love, but imo, model accuracy is going out the window, particularly with dissimilar amp model / real amp combinations while more compatible combinations will likely yield better results (ie Brit800 model into DSL return). To keep the Axfx models accurate, hi headroom monitoring with low coloration is the bee's knee's.
Click to expand...
Same.

Playing with a backline but also wanting accurate PA modeling for FOH requires "consideration" on the FM3, but thankfully I much prefer the sound of the FM3's power amp modeling running through a tube power section. It can take huge tones and makes them larger than life.

Accuracy definitely has its place if you're chasing something you're used to, but I've grown to learn that modeling is a playground for things you couldn't ever achieve in the analog realm. I'm thankful FAS still has its focus on the real deals, but breaking stuff is how everything advances.

My advice to newer users is to learn the "correct" way to do stuff first, and then remember that "correct" doesn't quite matter as long as the result is something you love.
 
This is how I currently use my FM3. I plug it into the FX Return of a tube amp. The FM3 is my pre-amp and effects with Power Amp modeling turned off. I've been doing this setup for years. I keep trying to use the FM3 direct into an FRFR or FOH but just can't seem to get what I want yet. I blame that on me since most people use FRFR or direct into FOH.
 
no point running into an amp fx return. you're using a poweramp + cab already. i would say that if you're running it with the poweramp sims turned off, you should turn them on and as your speaker is frfr, make sure cab modelling is on as well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom