Well....Here I am again........(sorry for the length)

[The_Kid]

I have presets....like all of us......I love them, then hate them...tweak them, love them then hate them....


The most recent batch I took a different approach and really tried to dial in some additional amps to help cover some of the inadequacies of the tones I was using. For instance my presets for my current show would use a clean amp, a Matchless, JCM800 and Diezel. While that covered the range of gain structures needed to make songs sound decent enough for FOH, I found little nuances of each group that I didnt like from a playing feel standpoint for certain songs. Which sent me on an exploration mission (seems like everytime I go through this I find an amp or two more that add something, but lack something else) and led me to adding a few more amps. At this point I've reached about 10-12 amps or so that I use for various things. I enjoy creating sounds that somewhat mimic the songs I play and think it adds to the audience experience (your mileage may vary, and that is fine).

So...here I am again...I've started experimenting with pre-EQ'ing my presets to help cut through the mix better. Now I'm using Ownhammer IR's, and they sound great to me, and I know I can experiment with different IR's which will dramatically change the tone as well....but again...its a feel thing mostly...I can EQ and tone shape well enough. With the pre-EQ'ing, i've dialed in some great rhythm sounds for the songs I play...and was happy with them....til I tried to build lead tones off them....

So...being that I have a week and a half til next show...thought I'd take opportunity to maybe seek some help on some starting spots.

Things I do not want:
block Levels
AMP EQ (unless you turn bright switch on/off and adjust to compensate, or tweak any Geek parameters that change the 'feel' of the tone)
Cab Settings

What I AM looking for:
Drive block settings (when used as a boost to an amp, also include Amp settings in relation to drive block)
Amp Gain/MV/geek settings that affect the feel of the amp

Starting tones I'm looking for are the following:

Clean Amp ( I get the EQ to sound like I want, and it feels brittle..this really shouldnt be hard with the amps available. I've used Shiva/Twin/Brown...ugh)
Gritty Amp (clean with some breakup after taste)
Light crunch type amp (I hear this as an older Aerosmith type tone, think Sweet Emotion Verse tone or something slightly grittier)
80's JCM800 tone (I always play the riff to Round & Round when I play for this type of tone)
Slash type rhythm ( I know he is a bit more on the thinner side, but his live tone rocks...and a tone like the intro riffs on the track Halo on his Apocalyptic Love cd is what I hear)
Mesa type tone - I like the tone on Stone Sour's song Tired.
Mesa type tone - Metallica Enter Sandman is what we play (I like his live tone better than the rhythm tones on albums, but I'm game for some suggestions here as I've heard good clips of all of them)


Part II

Like I said, I've come up with some decent rhythm tones EQing wise...just the feel is gone. On that note, Part II is some help with input trim/gate/gain settings. I seem to struggle with this as well.

I have EMG's in my guitar...going to a Sennheiser wireless into my Axe...direct to FOH.

I have input trim set at about noon, and typically only hit 2, maybe 3 lights on the input. I know the 'tickle the red' theory, and try to subscribe to it....but then run into noise/gain/gate issues.

What I'm looking for here is just some basic gate/drive/amp drive/master vol settings (dont care about EQ as its signal/noise level i'm concerned with here).

I think with my settings I've got:
input trim - noon
gate for boosted jcm800 patch threshold -68db, 2.8ish ratio, higher attack, lower release....






I do understand the concept of use your ears....which is great when your ears have real world experience with some of this stuff. Sometimes there is too much to consider and take in when adjusting things and its easy to get lost in knobs, parameters and the treasure of this unit. I'm not asking for handouts as I said, I can eq my own sounds...just trying to compare tones and find out if i'm 'out of whack' with some settings as some of them are more extreme that what would seem needed. I appreciate any help...I dont expect anyone to answer all of this...or any of it...but thought I'd reach out as I'm just frustrated with again having to start from ground zero to build a permanent library of sounds I can use and just be happy with.

Thanks for participating!!

 

[JJunkie]

I don't think I can manage a detailed response, or provide specific settings that would be useful to you, because I don't play live. But something that jumped out at me in your post was that no single amp sim you have tried has completed the picture for you in terms of feel. My suggestion is to consider playing through parallel amp sims that complement eachother. This may not be appealing to you or it may open the door to more variables to consider. Just thought it worth mentioning.

 

[The_Kid]

Hey, thanks for the response. I've toyed with some dual amp type setups....but just haven't had a set of presets I'm 'happy' with enough to allow time to explore that option.

I think my first concern is the gain structuring of the tones I'm looking for. Again, I can adjust to my taste...EQ isnt an issue as I will EQ to my guitar/system and such anyway.....but I'm curious....where do people set the drive/amp settings I mentioned.


More to your response Junkie....(and I appreciate your responses as you have helped me quite a bit in the past)... I dont see much how studio or live would matter. Maybe I dont spend enough time (read: hardly any) time in a studio....is it the layering of lower gained guitars that make it different? Is it ability to sustain properly?

 

[JJunkie]

I actually just play at relatively low volume at home so I think that my gain settings if used in a live/ rehersal (or even a studio) setting would be "too much". I am very similar to you though, in that I tend to move on from a patch that I previously liked. I don't think thats a bad thing necessarily as long as your taste in tone is actually progressing and not just going around in circles. I have basically banned myself from tweaking too much and have stuck with the same patches for a while now.

I only use 3 patches. FWIW They are attached for you to try out and check settings for if you actually like what you hear (i will be really surprised if these sound good to you).

1) "el capistan #1 dp" a clean patch shared by DonPetersen years ago. I use all his settings except I just disengage the delay block (makes a huge difference in tone) and added a FET boost in front of the amp. It works for a variety of humbucker / P90 guitars. I can't really explain the amp settings because I didnt do them, but the FET boost is all stock settings, but with drive at 7.7 and level at 4.6.

2) The "Trainwreck Rhythm' patch is a dual amp patch with Wrecker 1 and Buttery sims. Covers a lot of gain ground with use of guitar vol knob (and a big boost delivered by a PEQ in the old Scott Peterson style). I can go from clean (no boost, gtr volume down) to moderately heavy (boost on gtr volume up). I didn't really use much theory in creating the patch, except that I wanted 2 different, responsive amps side by side, with different drive blocks in front of each, so that they would be at different stages of breakup as I vary the guitar volume. The drive blocks are FET boost and TS808 and they are always turned on. I actually forget what the MBC block is doing there, but I think I used it to scoop??

3) "Bypass" - its a mesa patch that I didn't name yet. Uses USA Lead 2 sim for rhythm and IIC+ for lead. "External 3" (my expression pedal) switches between rhythm and lead in the mixer block. I think the mesa amp sims are a bit difficult to dial in. I only ever use them for high gain, and I find that this patch is very sensitive to what guitar I have plugged in. I mostly find myself adjusting the treble when changing guitars.

 

[simeon]

have you considered that your pickups and the wireless might be contributing to your problems? i would also say that only hitting two input lights is affecting your tone as well. turn up the input gain so that you're hitting the red when you play your hardest on the bridge pickup. make sure the noise gate offset is at zero in the globals. you shouldn't have gate/gain issues...just adjust your patches to compensate.
in terms of advice. don't have your gate settings too high. i don't use the gate block at all...just the input gate. i set it so that it reduces hiss when the guitar is turned down. just enough threshold and ratio....hardly on at all. on a mid to high gain amp, this means threshold at -90 and ratio at 1.8.
the cab ir's you choose will have a massive impact on tone and feel. for clean i use the usa clean with drive on 4, bass on 2.5 and master on 5 through a stereo cab with the 2x12 Jensen C12n and the 2x12 Celestion G12-65 from ownhammer.
for plexi crunch, i use the 100w high with master, bass, mid and treb maxed out, bright on, gain on 5 and pres on 2.5 through a stereo cab with the g12-T75 and the factory basketweave TV mix
i boost this for lead by using the 808mod with drive set very low and level on about 8
i don't mess with any advanced parameters...only input trim. everything sounds incredible to me, imo
i can probably help you out with some more suggestions and maybe some patches later on.
what also might be useful is if you can hear what a patch sounds like (recorded by the creator) and then compare it to how it sounds to you. if there are significant differences in tone or gain, then you may need to look at your signal chain and global settings. i can do a quick clip for you later.

btw, i've been running frfr since i got the ultra in 2010 (and now the II) and i do about 60-70 gigs a year with it

 

[The_Kid]

Ok - first of all...thanks for the info/help....I will try to respond to what you have posted and my previous experience/issues in a logical manner....


Junkie -
I will definately try the patches when I get a moment (hopefully tomorrow night) to sit down with that stuff. While the patches may not sound 'great' to me, there may be some things about them I can pull out and apply to my own applications....which is what I'm looking to get out of it. I agree changing your tone or tastes isnt a bad thing....for MY OWN tones....but when I play with the band and do covers....I prefer to get close to feel/tone as I can to the original (but still keep the tone playable to me). In the band environment...MY taste shouldnt change as much as playing 'Hit Me With Your Best Shot' should sound the same to me every show. Just how my head works. There may be some spots during the show that I may change up a sound or something if I have a chance to noodle during a solo and want to change the feel of what I'm doing...but for the most part...I want to have solid patches that I can rely on for that songs 'sound'.

So in that regard...I will comment on what I find and like/dislike when I get a chance to do so appropriately.



Simeon -

Im going to tackle your response piece by piece….as you have offered a vast amount of information for me to process. For the patch settings, I (as with Junkie) will tackle responses to those when I can test out the settings, but I as always appreciate the input. i'm not sure how to quote posts (yeah I'm that guy) so I will try to format it well enough to keep responses separated.


have you considered that your pickups and the wireless might be contributing to your problems?
- I have considered the wireless at times…in that I may need to check some settings. My argument against this thought though is that it is a pretty decent wireless ($700+ unit). I’ve had the issues with it across 2 different body packs, 1 being the original unit, and the 2nd being a newer model that is compatible with the older rack unit. I’ve had this wireless unit when I had my Peavey JSX and 4x12/2x12/rack/floor processor setup and never really had the issue then. The noise that I hear has been present since I’ve gone to Boss GT units and the Axe FX.
- Part 2 is the pickups. In my one guitar I have the coil split EMG’s and in the other I have the stock EMGs. The ‘noise’ is consistent across both guitars, and also was present on the guitar with the coil split EMG’s as it came with coil split passives that I had swapped out. My other experience against it being the guitars/pickups, is that I had the same issues with my two other guitars, which both at various times had passives/actives installed when using the above mentioned Boss/Fractal units. Just based on the variables present…I cannot fathom it would be anything with the guitars/pickups when there are 4 different guitars each with 2 sets of pickups…and its relatively consistent through all of it. The only thing I’ve read recently that might be contributing to some feedback issues I’ve had (going direct to FOH, and on a clean lead patch) is that maybe the pickups have become either unshielded or not properly grounded….that is in process to be checked out as well.

Ok, next topic

i would also say that only hitting two input lights is affecting your tone as well. turn up the input gain so that you're hitting the red when you play your hardest on the bridge pickup. make sure the noise gate offset is at zero in the globals. you shouldn't have gate/gain issues...just adjust your patches to compensate.
in terms of advice. don't have your gate settings too high. i don't use the gate block at all...just the input gate. i set it so that it reduces hiss when the guitar is turned down. just enough threshold and ratio....hardly on at all. on a mid to high gain amp, this means threshold at -90 and ratio at 1.8.
- I have reduced my input trim knob to noon, as if I get it up to where the red light tickles…I have to have it around 3-4:00, which based on other peoples posts…seems high for EMG Active pickups and also adds to the noise issue I encounter.
- I’m not sure what you mean by ‘noisegate offset’ in the globals. I have a Gen 1 unit…and the only noisegate settings I have (that I can remember) are on the patch level.
- Recently I went back and lowered some of my lead patch gate settings as I wanted a bit more ‘controlled’ feedback during some solos and felt they were getting cut off….so I backed the threshold down to about -72db-ish, and a ratio of 2.5-2.9. Attack at 3:00, Release at 9:00 give or take a bit. I adjusted the threshold while muting the strings until the noise was reduced to nothing and then raised it up a bit to have it not clamp on too hard. Part of the reason I seem to set it so high, is when I would be vibrato-‘ing a note…as it would decay, there would be some scratch noise coming through and the gate would then kick in…killing any sort of feel feedback from happening.

The main reason I am asking for help with patch settings…is I want to somewhat compare apples to apples. I know in this Fractal world…there are so many factors its not very feasible…but I’m not looking to compare ‘tone’ I’m looking to compare hard facts of settings. As I said, don’t care about EQ or tone that way…more concerned with gain structuring through the drive/amp settings and in relation to the gate settings so I can eliminate variables from what is stopping me from getting consistent results. I know they are possible…but I just need some comparable settings to play with as I dont think it should be this hard to get in the ballpark. I see everyone else is worried about cutting through the mix, or EQing patches...I'm stuck on these issues.

So in that regard
I think what I may do…is try and post a patch or two…that I like and maybe one that I’m struggling with and see what someone else’s experience or where they make changes on the gains/gate to achieve what I’m looking for and compare what the changes do. I don’t have the ability to record any clips…other than at shows…our sound guy will record our shows for us. Maybe I can get him to send me some clips of the band, with just my guitar to show some examples as well.


AGAIN, I APPRECIATE ALL YOUR INPUT AND HELP GREATLY!!!

 

[The_Kid]

Ok....so...after hours of tweaking at my dads through a powered mixer and some live FOH cabs....here is what I've learned.

1) I immediately noticed how easy it was to dial in 10 amps. I have added 10 Global amps (some of them amps I've never played with) that I can use live and there are about 7-9 more that I just dont have room for Globally, but may eventually work into a song or two if needed. I setup patches with just amp/cab...and only used 4 or 5 cabs across all the amps. Amps used were Deluxe, Special OD 2, Wrecker 1, JCM800, Fryette D60L, Diezel, Recto Orange, FAS Modern, Shiva LD, HI Power 1. 1 clean amp, 3 clean/gritty, 3 medium gain crunch, 3 high gain. Gives me enough range of tones/feel that I feel I can cover 80% of the songs...so good work on short notice...and a great start to build off of.

2) I am confused by most the amps 'MID' setting being dimed, and not finding anything harsh about it. As my sound guy says my tones just havent been having the cut to get through easily, I jokingly started turning the mids to 10 and then decided to dial out from there.....never had to. I'd say bass averaged around 5ish, treble and presence varied if the bright switch was on and it got too ice picky on the high end. Does this thing with the mids dimed on so many of these amps seem weird to anyone else?

3) I think the biggest shocking thing I found was (and I think this is what was adding to my noise/gain type issues).... I did all my tweaking of the 17+ amps. Found 10 that work for my global amps and will work for the songs in our setlist. Did this on the system I mentioned above. Gains less than what I remember using previously. I didnt use any boosted amp setups...I got home where I can do more editing for my LF+ foot controller...and tweaking back through a smaller mixer and headphones through my IEM's.....and HOLY SHIT...where did the gain go? I'm shocked. For example....I have the Special OD 2 amp set to give me a nice cleanish medium type gain (deluxe clean would be a 0 rating, FAS Modern/Recto ORange I rated at an 9, this amp I rated at a 3-4 on my scale of presets I dialed in). When I got home, through the headphones, it sounded damn near clean. My JCM800 sounded great for a medium gain crunch...get home and its like the gain is cut in half and I can hear more of a 'clean' signal in my tone. I think this is what was causing my patch issues....I was hearing the 'reduced' gain issue, and boosted so many amps...that through the live FOH, the effect had to be reversed and then was overly cooked out front....

4) I have not yet confirmed if the difference from #3 is a result of going with a cable while dialing in, and using my wireless at home to finish the foot controller tweaking. Will be testing that soon enough...and I'll post some patches to get some others feedback...but thought I'd share what I've run into so far....

 

[The_Kid]

Update #2.....Just went and tested some various configurations regarding front/rear inputs, cable/wireless setup. Interesting...I've played with this before, but never really noticed it. The wireless is reducing the input signal, but with a minor adjustment on the input trim knob I'm able to compensate...its not enough to warranty the gain issue I noticed above, but may have contributed to it


Different configurations
1) Wireless into rear input/front input selected - seems to reduce the gain getting into the chain
2)wireless into rear input/rear input selected - added a bit of signal back into the mix and helped fix the issue I noticed above
3)guitar cable into rear input/front input selected - same result as #1, but more pronounced
4)guitar cable into rear input/rear input selected - added some gain back into signal as with #2
5)wireless into front input/rear input selected - definately had an impact on the sound
6)wireless into front input/front input selected - seemed like 2nd best option and actually had to reduce the input trim from where it was at this point
7)guitar cable into front input/rear input selected - had a dramatic effect on input signal that could easily tell this wasnt right. Seemed to make it sound almost single coilish
8)guitar cable into front input/front input selected - best option...seemed to have the most input gain. Option #6 is only slightly less input, but I think that is more from the wireless being set to reduce the signal as to not clip the wireless system...

What I've learned is that when properly setup with the input settings....it seems to make a significant impact on my preset gain structure as well. I went back to my Special OD 2 patch that I said didnt have the gain that it did from live speakers to headphones/IEMs, and it seemed to get some of its life back for sure. For the almost 8 years I've had this great box, I've never noticed such a dramatic effect on my patches when playing with that setting and the front/rear inputs...interesting.

 

[chris]

What I've learned is that when properly setup with the input settings....it seems to make a significant impact on my preset gain structure

This shouldn't be that surprising. It's kinda like saying "plugging a guitar straight into a guitar cab isn't as loud as when I use an amplifier." Guitar into a cab just isn't how it's designed.

Using the front input, you need to select Front in the I/O menu. Using the rear input (input 1 left), you need to select Rear in the I/O menu.

Anything else really isn't an "option."

Cool that you tested all that out, but Front input with Rear selected is technically "wrong" as is Rear input (Input 1 Left) with Front selected.

 

[The_Kid]

I completely agree with you Chris, both in principle and now in practice. I'm amazed that I notice such a difference now....and when the ULtra Gen 1 came out, and all the threads about the special sauce and rear input vs front input that I read....I never really noticed a difference back then. I never A/B'd them against each other, but never noticed as dramatic of a difference as I did last night.