Volume issues, I am not loud enough apparently (I though the neighbors complaints ment the opposite)

Tsunamijuan

Tsunamijuan

Inspired
I don't seem to be loud enough right now to cut past the two guitar players an extremely loud drummer and they keyboard player. I know getting people to not sit ontop of me frequency wise is part of it. However I am running the amps I have at their limits (even borked a 500watt orange). Running a 700Watt peavey and It actually seems to be hitting the limit quicker than the orange did but at least its warning me when i am at the limit instead of breaking/going into protect.

I am still really amateur when it comes to bass. Though you guys have definitely helped steer me in the right direction.

I am using a pair of Avatar 2x10 x 2 right now that i am told are 250watts each cabinet. Hooked the the 700watt peavey. (axe-fx goes into the effects channel). The cabs are borrowed from a bandmate, haven't purchased/built cabs yet. I am getting ready to throw down cash on cabs and power amps.

But it kinda kicked me in the face earlier that maybe the problem isn't power but not enough speakers to move the air That i am looking to move. Maybe I need to consider something like a 8x10 or two, since I seem to be filling alot of extreme low frequencies. Rather than just throwing more power at the problem. I have been looking at getting a Matrix 2000watt power amp to fulfill my power needs.

Would love some input thanks in advance for the time.
 
It seems like you may have a lot of low end, It might be a good idea to put a Highpass filter, and point the cabs to you, maybe lift them from ground.
Note that will get rid of a lot of "rumble" but will make you hear yourself way much better.
Also, take care of those cabs, you might overpower them.
 
What kind of music, and what kind of bass (inc. tuning)?
Houta is touching around the subject. It is very likely that you are driving a ton of lows. Lows eat tons of power with little volume to show for it. Bass is omnidirectional and not as easily silenced by walls as mids/treble (guitar), so your neighbors likely are hearing you, and are annoyed. Rightfully so, given your setup and what you're doing.

One - Get the band to turn the hell down during rehearsal. There's basically no benefit to rehearsing very loudly - in fact, a lot of issues get muddied over and covered up. Turn down, tighten up, perform better. Oh, and your hearing will thank you (if you are as loud as you're saying, even with good ear plugs you're likely still causing damage). Live is different, but I'd argue a lower stage volume is still where you want to be, letting the PA do the heavy lifting and giving your soundguys/gals a much easier time to let you shine (plus, you'll be playing better ;)). I know this isn't the "cool" suggestion and will be ignored, but putting it out there anyway.

Two - High Passing is a great suggestion. Start stupid low - 40Hz, and go up from there. I have a fairly steep drop off (12dB/octave) starting at 70Hz - this is for a metal band that plays in Drop-A and I often have one of my Dingwalls in F#. For some of the EDM stuff I've played live (hella fun, quite awkward though), I had my HPF around 45Hz.

Three - More speakers is going to net you more volume, than more wattage through the same speakers. More power isn't your answer. Even if you double your wattage, you'll only have a miniscule amount of volume delta. What I would suggest is stacking your two Avatars vertically, so all four speakers are in a single column.

Four - Along with the HPF, look at your EQ. Where are your lo- and hi-mids? If you're scopping those out, you certainly won't hear yourself in any meaningful way. Take a good look at, and tweak everything from about 200Hz to 2.5kHz.
 
sorry the neighbor bit was a joke. We practice in a studio that has no neighbors during the hours we play. The building is heavily sound deadened. Which is part of the problem when it comes to practice volume. I am playing at the absolute max during practice which is kinda stupid. but I am hiding in a isolated section so i don't kill my hearing with Isolated inears, bearly turned up any. (just enough for the highs to be augmented i have a large amount of the lows scouped out.

we're playing a mix of rock/metal right now it seems. Stuff started off more pop/punky but has been getting heavier as we write more. Right now we are pretty much in standard though I am playing a 5 string now. With good chunks of the writing making use of the B string.

I do have filters already in place cutting out some of the extreme lows, in the 40-45hz range. I have stuff tweaked quite a bit in the 200hz-2.5khz range. I don't really have anything scooped heavily. I have some of the lows Scooped a tiny bit 1-2db to clean up their dominance and prevent them for hitting sympathetic vibrations of the room. Otherwise I am running fairly flat with small increases at the higher frequencies for prescence. (you guys had given me some great advice about improving my presence a few months ago which was a great help).

The avatars are already stacked in a column, Vertical instead of being stacked horizontal. I have ran them horizontal once at a show but i can't really say it changed things much (i couldn't hear them at all cause of stage restraints).

Sounds like the realization that more speakers are likely the correct solution at this point was on the right track. Since my biggest concern right now is if i am at the limit during practice, than it leaves me nothing when i am live and need to push the volumes higher. Which I ran into a few nights ago. The likely hood of running into a sound system here that can handle the bass is pretty much not gonna happen. I do own a large PA capable of handling it, but the band is firmly against using it. Plus the venues we have played so far want to use their pa's and nobodys had had enough power to handle vocals correctly heaven forbid mic/di instruments. Kinda stuck in the musical dark ages for some of this stuff so its stage volume or nothing.

@selta I knew you would steer me in the right direction, I definitely owe you a beer (if you drink) if not more.
 
In addition to everyone who has provided great advice, here are a couple other things to look at:.

  • How are the drums tuned? Are they ringy, are they tightly tuned, do they sound like you are hitting pizza boxes, or do they sound like you are hitting beach balls? Since the drums and bass operate as a rhythm section, your amp EQ needs to not compete in the same frequencies in order to be easily heard. You may want to just practice with the drummer a couple of times to ensure his tuning and your EQ isn't the culprit.
  • How does the guitar players have their amps dialed in? If the bass control on his amp is up more than noon on the dial, you are stepping on each other frequency-wise. Asking him to dial back his low end may allow your bass to be better heard. Tones made playing alone versus in a band context are 2 totally different animals.
  • Is the keyboard player playing a lot of his left hand lines using thick bass sounds in the same note range as what you are playing? If so, he might also be masking you.
  • Lastly, how are the songs arranged? If all of you are not leaving holes in the arrangement for each other's notes and chords to poke through, you end up with a scenario where everyone is turning up "more me" trying to be heard. In that case you will never have enough speakers or amplification to compete with each other and you will probably all suffer hearing loss if you don't rethink a few things.
 
@dr bonkers You have definitely highlighted some of the adversity i am dealing with in this band.

The drums and I actually sit quite nicely together. Most of the time. The kick and I lock up nicely, while still being semi separate. Snare obviously rings through. The toms seem to be in a good spot to that they get definition through me. The drummer plays louder than all hell which is certainly some of the volume issue. We have tried to get him to cut back a little but its likely hes got so much hearing damage at this point that hes clueless.

Guitar 1 is mostly in the highs with a limited amount of lows. He has his lows scooped a good deal.
Guitar 2 blew up his amp yesterday but has been on the dark and mostly low side of things, been trying to explain how to dial in sound to him for a while. He ended up using my axe-fx last night and one of my patches and loved it. So he has broken down and asked me help him with his tone.

Keyboards - hes not very experienced mostly hunt and pecks currently. I had a discussion with him about laying off the heavy lows and how they can wash me out. He does it from time to time but hes mostly doing it now when its been arranged for him to have a hole to him to sit in there. (i will play a high part at that point).

The song arrangement is definitely evolving. The strings are doing a good job of starting all play in different sections of the spectrum, so that each voice add's something. The original compositions of most of the stuff had people playing ontop of each other more. As we play more people starting to refine where they play to improve the individual voicing. There is a good deal of poly rhythmic work as well.

bass - alot of my parts definitely fall into playing two voices. I still am working alot at flamenco/classical guitar outside of this band. So when I get thrown stuff that is basically two parts. I am fairly comfortable falling into it. I also have been throwing alot of tremolo picking into stuff where i can sneak it in.
 
Tsunamijuan said:
@dr bonkers You have definitely highlighted some of the adversity i am dealing with in this band.

The drums and I actually sit quite nicely together. Most of the time. The kick and I lock up nicely, while still being semi separate. Snare obviously rings through. The toms seem to be in a good spot to that they get definition through me. The drummer plays louder than all hell which is certainly some of the volume issue. We have tried to get him to cut back a little but its likely hes got so much hearing damage at this point that hes clueless.

Guitar 1 is mostly in the highs with a limited amount of lows. He has his lows scooped a good deal.
Guitar 2 blew up his amp yesterday but has been on the dark and mostly low side of things, been trying to explain how to dial in sound to him for a while. He ended up using my axe-fx last night and one of my patches and loved it. So he has broken down and asked me help him with his tone.

Keyboards - hes not very experienced mostly hunt and pecks currently. I had a discussion with him about laying off the heavy lows and how they can wash me out. He does it from time to time but hes mostly doing it now when its been arranged for him to have a hole to him to sit in there. (i will play a high part at that point).

The song arrangement is definitely evolving. The strings are doing a good job of starting all play in different sections of the spectrum, so that each voice add's something. The original compositions of most of the stuff had people playing ontop of each other more. As we play more people starting to refine where they play to improve the individual voicing. There is a good deal of poly rhythmic work as well.

bass - alot of my parts definitely fall into playing two voices. I still am working alot at flamenco/classical guitar outside of this band. So when I get thrown stuff that is basically two parts. I am fairly comfortable falling into it. I also have been throwing alot of tremolo picking into stuff where i can sneak it in.
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some mufflers that are big pads that drop on the drum heads may help. I once played with a heavy hitter and this was the only thing that stopped us from going deaf in practice.
 
I made some additional changes to my eq a bit today that did help me cut a little more and be heard, moved the way i had the cabs angled around some too and I am having a bit less problems being heard in the studio while playing now. But still running the amp at its limits.

We had a long discussion tonight about volume level. People finally agreed to try using personalize monitor mixes. So either in ears or something else. Which is better than that it has been. Mosts likely will be isolating the drummer some for practice as well.

I am gonna look at getting an 8x10 probably, I had someone that offered me one for a good deal recently, mostly because the bands he plays in dont play in places or volume levels high enough to make use of it.
 
@Tsunamijuan have you looked into compression?

For the bass, with two guitars, keys, and drums, I would look to the song arrangement first and foremost. Chord voicings, especially on the keys, will make a big difference.

Then decide if the bass is an independent element of the song or does it combine with the keys or guitars to form "one" instrument?

Third, monitor with a large amount of compression. A multiband comp pulling down the lows around 6 db of gain reduction will let you turn up your monitor mix more with out distorting or losing your balls.
 
barhrecords said:
For the bass, with two guitars, keys, and drums, I would look to the song arrangement first and foremost. Chord voicings, especially on the keys, will make a big difference.
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Truth. Add to that: playing fewer notes. When you've got that many instruments you need to be hella conscious of what you play and when. You don't have a lot of sonic room to mess around in when the band gets bigger.

The times my band has walked away from a rehearsal going "damn we sounded good tonight" are the times when we all exercised a ton of restraint on the notes we were playing. Volume doesn't matter one bit if everyone is cranking out a continuous stream of notes and not playing the silence in between them.
 
iaresee said:
Truth. Add to that: playing fewer notes. When you've got that many instruments you need to be hella conscious of what you play and when. You don't have a lot of sonic room to mess around in when the band gets bigger.

The times my band has walked away from a rehearsal going "damn we sounded good tonight" are the times when we all exercised a ton of restraint on the notes we were playing. Volume doesn't matter one bit if everyone is cranking out a continuous stream of notes and not playing the silence in between them.
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It can be genre based and clever arrangements that let you craft the parts. Listen to early Yes. Everything is busy at times, big vocal stacks, busy bass, busy guitar, busy multiple keys, elaborate drum groove, all sandwiched into a nice stereo bottle :) Arranging of their songs is stellar.

But to your point, overplaying or playing something that doesn't support the song, is not good :)
 
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