Viirtual Capo comparison

GlennO said:
I would certainly hope anybody listening to the clips can hear that! It is not just your ears :). Also, see my other comment about transients. That's why I uploaded the clips: to steer this away from becoming a pointless discussion about subjective opinions, which is usually the result when somebody starts a thread like this without providing audio clips.
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Gotcha👍
 
Just dropping by. Thought I smelled a VC thread, so I had to investigate :)

My concern has always been the latency, so I'm more or less out of this discussion, since for overdrive you can't really hear any artifacts and I use it on cleans in only one song in my band's 200-song repertoire.

But that was good to learn; that "Smooth" is for chords and "Fast" is for single notes. Never knew that.
 
Ugly Bunny said:
Just dropping by. Thought I smelled a VC thread, so I had to investigate :)

My concern has always been the latency, so I'm more or less out of this discussion, since for overdrive you can't really hear any artifacts and I use it on cleans in only one song in my band's 200-song repertoire.

But that was good to learn; that "Smooth" is for chords and "Fast" is for single notes. Never knew that.
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The latency is another reason why VC sounds “off” to me and I wouldn’t consider using it live.
 
giantslayer said:
The latency is another reason why VC sounds “off” to me and I wouldn’t consider using it live.
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Really? Literally the only thing with better latency (and not by much; maybe 2ms by my measurements) is the Variax. The Axe Fx III's (and now the FM3's) are both as good as the Drop or any other poly pitch shifter. I use it all the time live; works flawlessly since they updated (Axe Fx III I think like 2 years ago and the FM3 in one of the recent updates; 4.02 or something?). But I'll be the first to admit that we all have different thresholds for what's acceptable in terms of latency - I just feel bad if the Axe III's isn't good enough for you, as it's objectively & measurably the best there is :(
 
I’ve used it on a strat I keep tuned down a 1/2 step to go up to standard turning. Used on edge of break up amp/settings and could barely notice anything different. Maybe one time using an ebow I head something odd for a second but nothing like you describe.
 
Ugly Bunny said:
Really? Literally the only thing with better latency (and not by much; maybe 2ms by my measurements) is the Variax. The Axe Fx III's (and now the FM3's) are both as good as the Drop or any other poly pitch shifter. I use it all the time live; works flawlessly since they updated (Axe Fx III I think like 2 years ago and the FM3 in one of the recent updates; 4.02 or something?). But I'll be the first to admit that we all have different thresholds for what's acceptable in terms of latency - I just feel bad if the Axe III's isn't good enough for you, as it's objectively & measurably the best there is :(
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How much latency does the VC add?
 
My name is mud said:
Maybe renaming “fast/smooth” to “single notes / chords” can be a nice idea
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Does the Digitech have these modes?

So I'm playing chords and have the thing on smooth then I need to step on a button and switch to fast for single note lines so the thing works as intended?

Good to know. I was doing it wrong. Now I just won't do it.
 
I just used it (axeIII VC) to drop a song down 4 semi-tones at practice last night and the drummer only said how cool and heavy the Journey song now sounded. Prior to this I've only changed pitch by 1 or 2 semi-tones on a couple of songs. Definitely a amazing tool that keeps me from having to transposing a song, especially ones with ringing open notes. I'm going to check my fast/smooth setting and see which I prefer...awesome note!
 
Dickie Fredericks said:
Does the Digitech have these modes?

So I'm playing chords and have the thing on smooth then I need to step on a button and switch to fast for single note lines so the thing works as intended?

Good to know. I was doing it wrong. Now I just won't do it.
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In my whammy 5, I have a switch classic/chords 👍🏻.
Yes “fast and smooth” don’t meant nothing to me neither
 
So, while it seems the debate portion has started, I don't really have anything to add...other than I use both a DT Whammy and the Axe-Fx III to cover my capo and detuning needs. Just depends on the requirements of the setlist and/or if I feel like hauling the extra pedalboard around. They both have their strengths and weaknesses.
 
giantslayer said:
How much latency does the VC add?
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The TOTAL latency from the strike of the note to Axe output is about 20ms. A baseline Axe preset has about 2-3ms. So the VC adds an additional 18ms or so; but again, that's the best you're going to find. The Drop is also right around 20ms. The Variax is about 18ms for pitch-shifted electric guitar models, slightly more for acoustics (an acoustic model adds about 10ms, and an acoustic pitch shifted is about 24ms; quite noticeable, IMO).

But again; I should make it clear: I'm a rhythm guitarist. I can totally understand why you may not find the VC acceptable if you're a soloist/lead player who relies on that nuance, immediacy, and perfect connection to every note, especially if you're playing anything fast or precise. It works for me because I just play chords.
 
Dickie Fredericks said:
So I'm playing chords and have the thing on smooth then I need to step on a button and switch to fast for single note lines so the thing works as intended?

Good to know. I was doing it wrong. Now I just won't do it.
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You could just setup for example scenes for rhythm vs lead and never have to think about this.

All Fractal is saying that "smooth" works better for chords, it does not mean you cannot use it for single note lines and vice versa. Many of us play both interchangeably so making the switch between rhythm vs lead is not always an option either.

I'm not big on virtual capos or pitch shifters in general but to me the one in the Axe-Fx 3 and FM3 works well, so does the one in Line6 Helix. None of them are going to be spot on perfect and all of them add a good chunk of latency. None of that is a dealbreaker issue to me.

If you don't mind the latency, any artifacts would quickly become a non-issue especially for live use where they'd just be lost in a band mix or might even add a bit of je ne sais quoi texture to the sound.
 
laxu said:
You could just setup for example scenes for rhythm vs lead and never have to think about this.

All Fractal is saying that "smooth" works better for chords, it does not mean you cannot use it for single note lines and vice versa. Many of us play both interchangeably so making the switch between rhythm vs lead is not always an option either.

I'm not big on virtual capos or pitch shifters in general but to me the one in the Axe-Fx 3 and FM3 works well, so does the one in Line6 Helix. None of them are going to be spot on perfect and all of them add a good chunk of latency. None of that is a dealbreaker issue to me.

If you don't mind the latency, any artifacts would quickly become a non-issue especially for live use where they'd just be lost in a band mix or might even add a bit of je ne sais quoi texture to the sound.
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Yeah, I got all that. I'm only asking the question. I don't use the VC anymore so it isn't an issue for me.

When I do use it, it's fine. Read the thread...I have done full gigs w the thing on.

It's silly to need two scenes. Does the Digitech need two scenes?

The warble is there. That's my main input here.
 
Ugly Bunny said:
The TOTAL latency from the strike of the note to Axe output is about 20ms. A baseline Axe preset has about 2-3ms. So the VC adds an additional 18ms or so; The Drop is also right around 20ms.
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I'm seeing results a little different than that. Adding a Drop pedal to my effects loop adds about 15ms of latency. The Axe-FX Virtual Capo varies quite a bit depending on settings, but you can get good results at settings that add about 10 ms.
 
I play in a progressive metal cover band (Opeth, Machine Head, Mastodon, Pantera...) where every song is tuned differently. I use Virtual Capo on every preset and whether I'm playing rhythm or leads I have no discernible warble or latency (to me). I am happy because I sound like the original songs. I believe part of the perception of this phenomenon is you play a chord with 0 pitch change and you hear notes interacting ("beating") as you expect. Then you drop down a significant amount and those beating frequencies ("harmonies") are longer wavelengths and are perceived as more prominent immediately because it is unexpected. In GlennO's clips, the warble I hear is just the lower frequency version of the beating of the chords. Listen to the final chord of his last Original clip, same warble, just expected as normal. The dropped recordings have the same effect, just lower and unexpected.
 
Ugly Bunny said:
The TOTAL latency from the strike of the note to Axe output is about 20ms. A baseline Axe preset has about 2-3ms. So the VC adds an additional 18ms or so; but again, that's the best you're going to find. The Drop is also right around 20ms. The Variax is about 18ms for pitch-shifted electric guitar models, slightly more for acoustics (an acoustic model adds about 10ms, and an acoustic pitch shifted is about 24ms; quite noticeable, IMO).

But again; I should make it clear: I'm a rhythm guitarist. I can totally understand why you may not find the VC acceptable if you're a soloist/lead player who relies on that nuance, immediacy, and perfect connection to every note, especially if you're playing anything fast or precise. It works for me because I just play chords.
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IIRC, 1ms is roughly equivalent to 1 foot of distance, so 18ms of delay is a similar feel to moving your amp 18 feet back. I remember back in my physical amp days, I was usually like 3-5 feet away from my amp. One time, I was closer to 15ft. Thought it would be glorious but the delay was noticeable and it wasn’t as fun as having it 5ft away.

I do as much leads/solos as I can get away with and that’s where the pitch shifter crosses over to not being usable for me.
 
moregear said:
I play in a progressive metal cover band (Opeth, Machine Head, Mastodon, Pantera...) where every song is tuned differently. I use Virtual Capo on every preset and whether I'm playing rhythm or leads I have no discernible warble or latency (to me). I am happy because I sound like the original songs. I believe part of the perception of this phenomenon is you play a chord with 0 pitch change and you hear notes interacting ("beating") as you expect. Then you drop down a significant amount and those beating frequencies ("harmonies") are longer wavelengths and are perceived as more prominent immediately because it is unexpected. In GlennO's clips, the warble I hear is just the lower frequency version of the beating of the chords. Listen to the final chord of his last Original clip, same warble, just expected as normal. The dropped recordings have the same effect, just lower and unexpected.
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I'm assuming you're playing all those tunes with distortion?

As has been mentioned a number of times, the warble is pretty much only apparent on clean tones.
 
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