Van Halen I Use of Serial Amp Heads But Using Amp Blocks - Worthwhile? & Is There Info Here On the Forum If So?

[jesussaddle]

This will probably get me banned because it was already beat to death (but I haven't seen it & I'm not aware of how to find the topic in the forums). So at the risk of offending someone, Martin Smith guitar Youtube has 2 videos from the past 10 months about EVH's brown sound (that's right ANOTHER guy making these videos, to go with a hundred or so already made). It struck me that he mentions a guy I knew, Messenger, from the old studio in North Hollywood that had spent time with Eddie during the Templeman era. My curiosity was hence peaked. Martin also included a photo of the VH1 recordings and some comments about the load system Eddie may have been fooling with. He demo's what happens to the characteristics of the sound moving the guitar vol. from 1 to 10, as a result of driving an amp head into another amp head. I think this, in the virtual world of the Axe FX, is mostly impossible without running into very wide, uncontrollable variables and uncontrollable physics - but then I haven't really tried it. I think I've understood that certain amp blocks might be used in a serial flow into the main amp block, for added warmth. Whereas in the VH1 sound it's purpose is apparently quite a huge boost in harmonics, that slowly develop with the volume knob, like water gradually boiling. I haven't found I could do this particular thing with the volume knob using my commonly chosen amp models.



About 7 minutes in is where he demonstrates the effect from raising the volume signal into the rig.

Is there any info someone can point me to about whether this approach to the VH1 sound might be worthwhile in Fractal gear, and if possible some ins and outs?

 

[sprint]

I don't really get the revellation here as he's essentially just describing lineout from a load box into another power amp with the 2nd power amp set to add more color - practiced widely in later years into clean monitoring, but ya, revolutionary at the time if he was one of the 1st to delve into load boxes. In Axfx, we can simulate a 2nd power amp stage using the "tube pre" amp model placed after a 1st amp block and with advanced p.a. setting values matched to those of whatever flavour p.a. model character is desired.

 

[jesussaddle]

I don't really get the revellation here as he's essentially just describing lineout from a load box into another power amp with the 2nd power amp set to add more color - practiced widely in later years into clean monitoring, but ya, revolutionary at the time if he was one of the 1st to delve into load boxes. In Axfx, we can simulate a 2nd power amp stage using the "tube pre" amp model placed after a 1st amp block and with advanced p.a. setting values matched to those of whatever flavour p.a. model character is desired.

Yes, I know it's thought to be a common idea now and there are so many opinions. I think he's not claiming revelation so much as showing off a precision setup. It's the sound of the first record that appeals to me personally, and I thought this guy might be onto something in terms of the particulars of his equipment settings, not just his signal flow.

Long ago I tried the "tube pre" into different amp blocks (I think this might have even been when I had the Ultra!!). No success. It reminded me of trying mic preamps before I had access to a good sound card. Very hard to hear a coloration like using a cheapie sound card, and also hard to hear it prior to the looper block, when you had to keep plucking notes and turning GUI dials, ad infinitum.

I was contrasting this result with my real world experience with the ADA MP-1 into the Boogie simul class into the Peavy cabs, which colored my clean as well as medium gain playing in the 90's. Not having a '67 plexi, or at that time a strat guitar body, it was always great but different to the EVH1 sound. The "tube pre" sitting in front of the amp seemed just to add noise and the kind of tube warmth that doesn't always work in excess.

But to me, in that video, that gradual saturation increase he gets is hitting something that works like VH1. Maybe there are axechange presets using a "tube pre" for VH1 that are closer than what I could do on my own? I've had my own, using the Brit Brown, that I like alright but I had a bad experience using "tube pre" in the Ultra era. Maybe it's time to re-try it!

 

[sprint]

I tried the "tube pre" into different amp blocks (I think this might have even been when I had the Ultra!!). No success.

Not "tube pre into" - I was referring above to ""tube pre" amp model placed after a 1st amp block" to replicate the added character of a secondary power section fed by a loadbox'd line-out from the primary (tube-pre's pre section can't be turned off but is very flat so does not interfere as a typical pre section would - set the tube-pre model's power.amp related parameters to match the power section of whatever other amp model you want to replicate the power section character from).

VH1 - big impact on me also waay back in the day.

 

[rzjd]

similarly he posted another video recently and went into more detail.
At this point, as far as I know with regards to Fractal, you can disable the power tube portion of the amp block but not the pre-amp, so getting the fender distortion is easy for the pre part but to my knowledge, there is no way of just activating the power section of the amp block. Wouldn't the tube pre block just be the pre? That sounds like the opposite of what you would want to do. You want the pre amp of one block and the power amp of another. Fender pre into Marshall power. Regardless, I think there are many presets on here that sound ridiculously close to the intended result. If none of that works, there's always the match block. I have one that works well for me, but not to say that it would work for anyone else's guitar.

 

[jesussaddle]

similarly he posted another video recently and went into more detail.
At this point, as far as I know with regards to Fractal, you can disable the power tube portion of the amp block but not the pre-amp, so getting the fender distortion is easy for the pre part but to my knowledge, there is no way of just activating the power section of the amp block. Wouldn't the tube pre block just be the pre? That sounds like the opposite of what you would want to do. You want the pre amp of one block and the power amp of another. Fender pre into Marshall power. Regardless, I think there are many presets on here that sound ridiculously close to the intended result. If none of that works, there's always the match block. I have one that works well for me, but not to say that it would work for anyone else's guitar.

Thanks for the video link. (Confused about his use of the term "slave" actually. I guess when the 2nd amp is used to refine the tone that's why the first is a "slave"? I'm familiar in the MIDI world of "slave" to the clock of the "master"... but maybe my confusion is based on electronics ignorance, after all, the signal levels and load specs are Greek to me. )

I did just now successfully get a very good sound with the tube pre going INTO the brit brown, although it needs a bit of refinement in terms of the tone stack. (I haven't explored the difference between the tube pre before vs after the OTHER amp model... Interesting).

Indeed, there are very esoteric (to me) details about how the pre tubes saturate versus what power tubes will do, as well as the nature of "order", so until now I thought that because it didn't work for me in the Ultra, I probably wasn't going to succeed. But I'm quite happy I stumbled onto that guy's videos because actually to my ears this signal flow has a unique character of saturation - not exactly the same as the authentic & ideal saturations in the amp block. It's not precisely the VH1 sound but sounds warmer than other options - it's different than adjusting the drive level & power amp level, and amp block saturation, and different than adding a typical drive block in front, etc. (I haven't messed with some of the drive models). More to play with!

In the past I think I was bogged down with learning some other things about the Axe FX environment (into a PC home studio), probably was still using headphones (which I find unsuitable for my goals because the guitar pickups apparently don't receive the speaker output and "sing" with it , etc.) But I gained some confidence this morning.

 

[sprint]

Wouldn't the tube pre block just be the pre?

The "tube-pre" model has both a pre and a power section.

there is no way of just activating the power section of the amp block

correct, however, tube-pre's preamp section is very flat and transparent at default settings so has very little effect. It's power section is generic but can be altered by matching parameters to reflect the settings of another model's power section whose character one wants to replicate. Given it's transparent pre, the tube-pre model can approach replicating power sections only (except for any power amp character that can only be established via internal power amp related parameter/code that are/is not user accessible).

 

[flitz]

You can look at this thread, it would be helpful to you achieving your goals.
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/jose-arredondo-additional-preamp-tube-mod.174016/

 

[rzjd]

I did just now successfully get a very good sound with the tube pre going into the brit brown, although it needs a bit of refinement in terms of the tone stack.

Indeed, there are very esoteric (to me) details about how the pre tubes saturate versus what power tubes will do, as well as the nature of "order", so until now I thought that because it didn't work for me in the Ultra, I probably wasn't going to succeed. But I'm quite happy I stumbled onto that guy's videos because actually to my ears this signal flow has a unique character of saturation - not exactly the same as the authentic & ideal saturations in the amp block. It's not precisely the VH1 sound but sounds warmer than other options - it's different than adjusting the drive level & power amp level, and amp block saturation, and different than adding a typical drive block in front, etc. (I haven't messed with some of the drive models). More to play with!

In the past I think I was bogged down with learning some other things about the Axe FX environment (into a PC home studio), probably was still using headphones (which I find unsuitable for my goals because the guitar pickups apparently don't receive the speaker output and "sing" with it , etc.) But I gained some confidence this morning.

care to share it? I'd love to try it out for kicks.

Here's mine and the various cabs. My ears fluctuate a lot so I'm never one to stop changing things. All in all there are cabinet names associated with the slots. I use trim and gain a lot as it varied greatly from song to song. Tons of reverb options. The phaser and flanger were provided from resources here. Don't be fooled by the 2204, the sound is in there. I play an EBMM so that will be a factor too.

 

[jesussaddle]

care to share it? I'd love to try it out for kicks.

Here's mine and the various cabs. My ears fluctuate a lot so I'm never one to stop changing things. All in all there are cabinet names associated with the slots. I use trim and gain a lot as it varied greatly from song to song. Tons of reverb options. The phaser and flanger were provided from resources here. Don't be fooled by the 2204, the sound is in there. I play an EBMM so that will be a factor too.

I'm out of memory so I essentially have a few versions that are a hodge podge of experiments - One leaves out my usual lead delay since there happened to be a multi-delay block at the moment (which I should remove to stop the crackling) - I was experimenting with how to get an Ain't Talkin' Bout Love flange slapback thing. Didn't quite succeed! It's an Axe II thing but I think you can convert using Fractool.

 

[rzjd]

I'm out of memory so I essentially have a few versions that are a hodge podge of experiments - One leaves out my usual lead delay since there happened to be a multi-delay block at the moment (which I should remove to stop the crackling) - I was experimenting with how to get an Ain't Talkin' Bout Love flange slapback thing. Didn't quite succeed! It's an Axe II thing but I think you can convert using Fractool.

thanks. didn't realize you were on a II. I'll at least see what you did.

the thread for the phaser stuff is very interesting found here and here:
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/i-matched-an-mxr-phase-90.153314/

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/clones-of-mxr-phase-95-mxr-m117-flanger-ep3-echoplex.159878/

 

[Rex]

(Confused about his use of the term "slave" actually. I guess when the 2nd amp is used to refine the tone that's why the first is a "slave"? I'm familiar in the MIDI world of "slave" to the clock of the "master"... but maybe my confusion is based on electronics ignorance, after all, the signal levels and load specs are Greek to me. )

The first amp is the master. It tells the second amp (the slave) what to do.

 

[flitz]

Excuse me if I got this all so wrong, but could someone more informed explain what exactly is Tube Pre in amp block. Is it only activated poweramp section with poweramp tubes or preamp section with preamp tubes, or something entirely different that I don`t understand exactly what it is? It's very confusing info from the wiki explanation quotes. Thanks.

 

[sprint]

Excuse me if I got this all so wrong, but could someone more informed explain what exactly is Tube Pre in amp block. Is it only activated poweramp section with poweramp tubes or preamp section with preamp tubes, or something entirely different that I don`t understand exactly what it is? It's very confusing info from the wiki explanation quotes. Thanks.

Its a very flat sounding amp model with an active preamp section and an active bypassable power amp section like every other amp model. Since the preamp section is so flat it (the preamp section) does not change the incoming tone much, therefore, tube-pre can effectively be used as a quasi stand- alone power amp. As mentioned above, the character of the tube-pre model's power amp section can be influenced or made to sound like another model by copying power amp related parameter values from another amp model into the tube-pre model.

 

[jesussaddle]

The first amp is the master. It tells the second amp (the slave) what to do.

At 4:23 he says he's going to "slave" the tremolux into the GT Trio and Dual 75 power amp. So I was thinking the first amp is the slave like in the MIDI situation, but I guess the terminology "slave it" made it confusing.

 

[rzjd]

The slave is the power amp. Historically you would take your main amp and if you needed more power, you would add the power section of a second amp. (Slave)
In the case of the evh article, the main amp would be the fender and add the marshall power amp. Eddie did love his fenders

 

[flitz]

Here's what Eddie had to say about his 1963 Blond Bandmaster:
​

“I used that amp for years in two ways. I already had the Marshall, but I had not stumbled onto the Variac thing yet, so I would use the Bandmaster through the Marshall cabinet when we gigged at smaller clubs like Gazzarri’s. In the little house in Pasadena that I grew up in, my mom always hated what she called ‘that high crying noise’—in other words, soloing. She’d always go, ‘Why do you have to make that high crying noise?’ “If you plug the cabinet into the external speaker output instead of the regular output, it’s really quiet. I could turn everything all the way up, which is what I always did anyway, and there was this small amount of bleed that sounded exactly like when the regular output is turned all the way up, but it’s really quiet. Everyone says that you can’t do that because the transformer will blow, but the amp never blew up. “The real beauty of that amp is how many songs I wrote with it. I wrote all of the early Van Halen songs for the first three albums with that amp, playing quietly in my room. It was really quiet, so my mom couldn’t hear me, but it sounded amazing. My dog Monty would sit down next to me, and he dug it. When I wrote the intro to ‘Women in Love,’ he was sitting there with his ears perked up, like the RCA Victor dog. That Bandmaster was more important than my Marshall head, because I wrote everything with it.”
https://wgsusa.com/blogs/news/eddie-van-halen-secret-amp-the-fender-bandmaster

 

[Rex]

At 4:23 he says he's going to "slave" the tremolux into the GT Trio and Dual 75 power amp. So I was thinking the first amp is the slave like in the MIDI situation, but I guess the terminology "slave it" made it confusing.

He just got it backwards, like when people say, “I could care less” when they really mean, “I couldn’t care less.”

 

[jesussaddle]

I'm thinking of getting upgraded from the II to an FM9, mostly for pedal control but also hoping to unlock more tones. I was concerned with spending that kind of dough when I hadn't been so good at creating presets - with my old guitar pickups that were very noisy and a little unique harmonically. But I really like these latest creations. What I've got since originally posting, with running 2 amps in series, is working well. But I'm doing this with the Tube Pre IN FRONT of the main amp, contrary, I guess, to popular opinion. I'm afraid to switch it and put the Tube Pre AFTER the main amp.

It almost seems I can take MOST any amp meant for gain driven tones and use Fractool to 'Amps Compare' that amp to my Brit Brown that I started with - which allows the settings of the source Brit Brown preset to be kept (at least to some degree). Maybe there are other ways to dial these searing lead sounds up but these presets with the Tube Pre going INTO the main amp are some of my favorites (with warm tube harmonics galore, and generous, crying sustain). The character of each main amp (amp 1) is completely distinct, and for whatever reason I have the input gate into a comp and drive (T808 OD with 'drive' set at zero), and then a gate/exp block - the quietness/gating when not playing is virtually flawless, not cutting off the lead sustains but coming in when I mute the strings or stop playing [I'm using a Fishman Fluence McRocklin so bridge, neck, and middle pickups are super quiet anyway]. Tube Pre drive is 1.89. Tube Pre Bass, Mid, Treb, Bright are at 5. On the main amp my starting place is a sag of 7.5 or so, and I start with IDEAL saturation. My amp setup looks like this: Input Trim at 9.15, Drive at 1.38, Boost On, Bass at 1.73. Mid 3.87, Treb 8.25, Bright 1.84 db, Presence 7.16, Depth 1.77, Master Vol 2.44. GEQ dips are -0.48 at 63, -0.96 at 125, -1.92 at 250, -0.96 at 500, -0.48 at 1K, above that everything is at default 0.00.

Maybe it isn't necessary to do this; But it gets me the most interesting tones for lead playing. I've gone through the 'Amps Compare' now repeatedly with no duds, and created presets for the Brit Brown, Bogfish Brown, Brit 800 Mid, Bludojai Lead Pab, Big Hair, 1987x Jump, 5153 50W Blue, etc. All are sounding spectacular - starting points for further editing but what they have in coming is absolutely singing sustain and joyous organic sounding harmonic blends. Dialing the tone knobs would be the next obvious step, but every one of them sounded fantastic already, on all pickups.

I suppose, based on the feedback above, that I should now try to create a preset with Tube Pre FOLLOWING the main character amp? Tube Pre made me think it was like a tube preamp section, like my old MP-1, which I ran in front. Or maybe I should try to get placebo hypno therapy.

 

[sprint]

I'm thinking of getting upgraded from the II to an FM9, mostly for pedal control but also hoping to unlock more tones. I was concerned with spending that kind of dough when I hadn't been so good at creating presets - with my old guitar pickups that were very noisy and a little unique harmonically. But I really like these latest creations. What I've got since originally posting, with running 2 amps in series, is working well. But I'm doing this with the Tube Pre IN FRONT of the main amp, contrary, I guess, to popular opinion. I'm afraid to switch it and put the Tube Pre AFTER the main amp.

It almost seems I can take MOST any amp meant for gain driven tones and use Fractool to 'Amps Compare' that amp to my Brit Brown that I started with - which allows the settings of the source Brit Brown preset to be kept (at least to some degree). Maybe there are other ways to dial these searing lead sounds up but these presets with the Tube Pre going INTO the main amp are some of my favorites (with warm tube harmonics galore, and generous, crying sustain). The character of each main amp (amp 1) is completely distinct, and for whatever reason I have the input gate into a comp and drive (T808 OD with 'drive' set at zero), and then a gate/exp block - the quietness/gating when not playing is virtually flawless, not cutting off the lead sustains but coming in when I mute the strings or stop playing [I'm using a Fishman Fluence McRocklin so bridge, neck, and middle pickups are super quiet anyway]. Tube Pre drive is 1.89. Tube Pre Bass, Mid, Treb, Bright are at 5. On the main amp my starting place is a sag of 7.5 or so, and I start with IDEAL saturation. My amp setup looks like this: Input Trim at 9.15, Drive at 1.38, Boost On, Bass at 1.73. Mid 3.87, Treb 8.25, Bright 1.84 db, Presence 7.16, Depth 1.77, Master Vol 2.44. GEQ dips are -0.48 at 63, -0.96 at 125, -1.92 at 250, -0.96 at 500, -0.48 at 1K, above that everything is at default 0.00.

Maybe it isn't necessary to do this; But it gets me the most interesting tones for lead playing. I've gone through the 'Amps Compare' now repeatedly with no duds, and created presets for the Brit Brown, Bogfish Brown, Brit 800 Mid, Bludojai Lead Pab, Big Hair, 1987x Jump, 5153 50W Blue, etc. All are sounding spectacular - starting points for further editing but what they have in coming is absolutely singing sustain and joyous organic sounding harmonic blends. Dialing the tone knobs would be the next obvious step, but every one of them sounded fantastic already, on all pickups.

I suppose, based on the feedback above, that I should now try to create a preset with Tube Pre FOLLOWING the main character amp? Tube Pre made me think it was like a tube preamp section, like my old MP-1, which I ran in front. Or maybe I should try to get placebo hypno therapy.



comment says it should.)

My comments above were more directed to what I could understand was happening in the vid (tho that seemed a bit vague after a couple of viewings) , but by all means, if "pre" 1st in line sounds best to you then all is good - that's a beauty of Axfx: you can create any config that floats yur boat!