Underwhelming Live Recordings

so, just wondering....does the xr18 have a limiter built in? never used one before. could this be a potential solution to our rhythm gtr playing so loudly at times?
 
PSea said:
so, just wondering....does the xr18 have a limiter built in? never used one before. could this be a potential solution to our rhythm gtr playing so loudly at times?
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There might be one in the FX library that you could use as an insert. Never looked for one. Not the same thing, but you could use the compressor that's built into each channel.

It sounds like you don't have anyone to actively mix you. I'd also think that his increasing volume would be a bigger problem for stage volume. Usually, people with loud amps and relatively small venues don't have much going through the PA.
 
PSea said:
so, just wondering....does the xr18 have a limiter built in? never used one before. could this be a potential solution to our rhythm gtr playing so loudly at times?
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Every channel on the XR18 has a Compressor that can be setup as a hard limiter.

But you should try to address the issue at the source. Has your rhythm guitarist heard the recordings? Did He/She agree?
 
It sounds like you might indeed need a well dialed in compressor on your rhythm guitarist's channel. I would set the attack low(fast) to immediately stomp on his volume when it peaks over the threshold. Adjust it until you get a good compromise between his initial string attack and ratcheting his volume down before it gets out of hand. Maybe use a hard "knee". Might want to use a higher ratio, nothing as high as a gate, but perhaps a 6:1 or even higher if necessary. Keep the makeup gain low or zeroed. @Moke is dead on though, best to deal with this issue at its source, the player. You don't want to end up with his guitar sound being overly compressed. You want to preserve some of the dynamics and initial attack of the rhythm guitar.

I also like using the multi-band compressor on the XR18 for the overall mix. Particularly useful when you are mixing your band from stage as in some respects it almost acts like an engineer working the board. It is one of the trickier effects on the XR18 to master the parameters on though. Can be helpful though as it is more selective in which frequencies it knocks the level down on, which can better retain the levels on the parts of the frequency spectrum that don't require compression.
 
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Speaking of compression and mixing yourselves. Another really cool (auto-mix) trick that I use on our XR18 is to have, otherwise unused, compressors on my guitar and backing track channels 'side-chained' to the lead vocal channel, so that when ever he is singing, those two stereo channels (duck) drop down by around 3 dB. Then when there is no lead vocal, they bump back up to fill in the mix.

I haven't done this to the drums and bass, as they don't really inhabit the same vocal frequency range as much. But might still be useful.
 
Moke said:
Speaking of compression and mixing yourselves. Another really cool (auto-mix) trick that I use on our XR18 is to have, otherwise unused, compressors on my guitar and backing track channels 'side-chained' to the lead vocal channel, so that when ever he is singing, those two stereo channels (duck) drop down by around 3 dB. Then when there is no lead vocal, they bump back up to fill in the mix.

I haven't done this to the drums and bass, as they don't really inhabit the same vocal frequency range as much. But might still be useful.
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Of course, you’d NEVER think of ducking the guitar channels! NEVAH! LOL!

That’s a cool trick!

I just joined a band with an XR18, and I think I know know more about it than they do, but I’d love to learn more. Any cool forums similar to this one for it?
 
rushfan said:
Of course, you’d NEVER think of ducking the guitar channels! NEVAH! LOL!

That’s a cool trick!

I just joined a band with an XR18, and I think I know know more about it than they do, but I’d love to learn more. Any cool forums similar to this one for it?
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I try to be a team player. But honestly, the guitar is probably a little loud. And the compression during the lead vocal parts just puts the guitar back where it should have been already... ;):D:cool:
 
Moke said:
Every channel on the XR18 has a Compressor that can be setup as a hard limiter.

But you should try to address the issue at the source. Has your rhythm guitarist heard the recordings? Did He/She agree?
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i couldnt agree w you more. ive had hours long phone calls talking about creating presets, sitting in mixes, pedal settings and signal chain. ive done the same in person as well as writing a ridiculously long list of steps and emailing after he told me he was going to factory reset his Boss pedal a few days before our first gig. he literally didnt even read the first sentence stating what to plug into (the power amp in on his katana). AAF is an understatement. at this point a hard limiter is my best and only option other than kicking him to the curb.
 
I haven't read through each post, so some or all of this may have been covered already..

What we did was multitrack record each channel, tapped at the analog source, at a rehearsal. Then I could run those individual (dry) tracks back through the mixer at the same locating in the signal chain where they were captured. This allowed me to re-mix our band after the fact, at home, initially through headphones and desktop monitors. In our case there were no onstage amps and our drums are electronic (Alesis DM5 initially, now pads into a laptop running Superior Drummer). Just a couple of monitor wedges, so everything was direct. If there are cabs and real drums onstage, it complicates things a bit. You have to account for the volume that they will contribute to the overall sound. But this process is still valid for getting things in the ballpark.

This process allowed me to solo each channel and really dial in the EQ, Gates, Compression (including the 'side-chaining' mentioned in my earlier thread), effects, etc.. I even ran it all back through our PA system and monitors to get it all dialed it at gig volume (sorry neighbors). Then we used this new mix at the first show with this new system, which was captured again. Then went through the whole process again a couple more times. We repeat this process every time some different gear is added. These multitrack captures are also very handy for getting a rough (virtual) sound check, and tweak the mains for the room.

Here is a little 'direct from the board' sample from almost 9 years ago, early in the process. Since then a bunch of different gear and a new bass player have been added. These types of clips are always missing the ambience of the room, and the effect/feel of the volume. So they are always a bit anemic, unless you do some post processing and/or blend it with some room mics.
 
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My band uses an approach similar to make. We use an X32Core controlled by a laptop and record 32 channels directly after the input gain controls to internal SD cards. Then I use a python program to extract the channels out of the SD cards into a Logic Pro project using a template I created for the band.

What I found from comparing Zoom H4N recordings of the gig in the room with the mixed recordings from the PA are:
  • Its impossible to judge what's coming out of the PA with what's in the room when you have stage amps and real drums, they're entirely different things
  • What you hear in the recordings isn't what's heard in the room because of backline stage volume
  • The recordings of my guitar are similar to what I hear in my IEMs when performing - we all have our own mix, not everyone uses IEMs there are wedges too.
  • Stage volume is our enemy, but there are constraints that prevent us from going amp-less and MIDI drums
  • I have had good success recording guitar tones with Helix, Quad Cortex and FM9, the modelers probably aren't the problem with thin, overly distorted tones
  • It is possible to do a really good mix from the raw tracks of the SD card in Logic. I even correct a few mistakes, just like the pros do.
Finally, I thrilled with my new FM9!
 
Jim Amsden said:
My band uses an approach similar to make. We use an X32Core controlled by a laptop and record 32 channels directly after the input gain controls to internal SD cards. Then I use a python program to extract the channels out of the SD cards into a Logic Pro project using a template I created for the band.

What I found from comparing Zoom H4N recordings of the gig in the room with the mixed recordings from the PA are:
  • Its impossible to judge what's coming out of the PA with what's in the room when you have stage amps and real drums, they're entirely different things
  • What you hear in the recordings isn't what's heard in the room because of backline stage volume
  • The recordings of my guitar are similar to what I hear in my IEMs when performing - we all have our own mix, not everyone uses IEMs there are wedges too.
  • Stage volume is our enemy, but there are constraints that prevent us from going amp-less and MIDI drums
  • I have had good success recording guitar tones with Helix, Quad Cortex and FM9, the modelers probably aren't the problem with thin, overly distorted tones
  • It is possible to do a really good mix from the raw tracks of the SD card in Logic. I even correct a few mistakes, just like the pros do.
Finally, I thrilled with my new FM9!
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Similar story hear, using an X32 rack, recording to the internal SD cards. In our case we have a silent stage, so what comes out of the PA (with room influences) is it. Since we are DIY live mix, the capability to play back a previous gig performance from the multitrack has been gold, allowing us to sound check the mix in the room... not just close, but exactly... as if we were playing live. We also review the recordings from every gig on some reference systems, iteratively making little automation and mix tweaks.

The X32 capability of multitrack recording on SD cards (and thus no PC / DAW involved) is a really powerful capability. (@Jim Amsden like you we have also brought some of these into Logic for fun and games, including the nice ability to strip out a single channel for mix & merging.)
 
Jim Amsden said:
My band uses an approach similar to make. We use an X32Core controlled by a laptop and record 32 channels directly after the input gain controls to internal SD cards. Then I use a python program to extract the channels out of the SD cards into a Logic Pro project using a template I created for the band.
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I've done a bunch of mixing multi-track recordings from SD cards off an X32 in the manner that I think you use. It's interesting that you had to make a Python program to do that. Are you referring to the fact that the X32 records a single 32-channel WAV file and you need to separate them? How computing intensive is your Python program?

I haven't used Logic, but Reaper has a built in function to Explode the multichannel audio into one-channel items. I'm sure your Python program is probably doing that just fine for you, but I figured I'd show how to do in Reaper in case it helps others.
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RockYoWorld said:
I've done a bunch of mixing multi-track recordings from SD cards off an X32 in the manner that I think you use. It's interesting that you had to make a Python program to do that. Are you referring to the fact that the X32 records a single 32-channel WAV file and you need to separate them? How computing intensive is your Python program?

I haven't used Logic, but Reaper has a built in function to Explode the multichannel audio into one-channel items. I'm sure your Python program is probably doing that just fine for you, but I figured I'd show how to do in Reaper in case it helps others.
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The Python program is simple enough. It's a simple GUI that uses PyQT6 to prompt for source and target folders. Then it splits the single 32 track wave file from the X32 and extracts only the channels we use, reorders them, converts a a number to stereo, and outputs separate wave file that can be imported in bulk into a Logic Pro project using a template for the band that has most of the typical mixing choices we need to make. It really speeds up the overall workflow.

Logic will explode a multi-channel wave file too, but I wanted to automate most of the typical editing I would have to do with the result.
 
AlexMania said:
Listening to anything off the board has been the surest way to zap my will to live after any gig.
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The board is "sound reinforcement". Unless you are running a silent stage, it is going to be missing what is coming off the stage in the mix. Individual mics to individual channels of multitrack recorder can be made to sound good if mixed properly for that, but a stereo feed off the board sounds worse the smaller the venue is due to the stage sound's relative size in the mix....
 
Jim Amsden said:
The Python program is simple enough. It's a simple GUI that uses PyQT6 to prompt for source and target folders. Then it splits the single 32 track wave file from the X32 and extracts only the channels we use, reorders them, converts a a number to stereo, and outputs separate wave file that can be imported in bulk into a Logic Pro project using a template for the band that has most of the typical mixing choices we need to make. It really speeds up the overall workflow.

Logic will explode a multi-channel wave file too, but I wanted to automate most of the typical editing I would have to do with the result.
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I like that. It tickles my brain. Thanks for sharing. I can see the improved workflow. Mine requires opening a template, exploding, and dragging the files into the right tracks. Not difficult, but I can see the Python program really simplifying the process.
 
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