Underwhelming Live Recordings

[chris]

hmmm. not sure what you mean by "right after the head amp." all instruments are sending a line signal direct to the PA. only things mic'd are drums. faders are adjusted a bit but input gain for ea track were set w the faders at unity to get most inputs hitting an average of -18dbfs.

in the PA, im not using any compression. no gate and very little EQ'ing. for the most part the PA EQing is for hi/lo cuts of bass, vocals, kick and the other guitar (he struggles to even figure out how to plug into his amp correctly. so i do eq'ing at the PA for him). plus, perhaps a bit of frequency cutting to prevent vox feedback.

for me, the fm9 out1 (+4db) is direct to the PA. running only mono. all my eq'ing is within the fm9.

imo, it's a pretty raw recording. perhaps a little to raw/honest lol.

does that answer your question?

i believe you can choose where the USB takes the signal from the mixer: right after input (which is after the headamps/gain of the mixer), post compression, pre-fader, post-fader. the default is usually right after input, so all of the adjustments you described are not factored in at all.

so whatever mix you had on stage or at FOH from that mixer is NOT represented in your recording if you took signal before any of the adjustments including faders. that's one reason the recording may sound underwhelming.

this is different than recording the main stereo output where everything is somewhat balanced and that recording may sound a bit better immediately.

again i think tapping right after the head amp is the best way to record for mixing later, but it just doesn't have anything applied so it's very raw.

 

[Rex]

The recordings don't lie.

True. But they don’t always tell the whole truth. A board mix won't sound anything like it sounds in the house.

 

[RockYoWorld]

i believe you can choose where the USB takes the signal from the mixer: right after input (which is after the headamps/gain of the mixer), post compression, pre-fader, post-fader. the default is usually right after input, so all of the adjustments you described are not factored in at all.

so whatever mix you had on stage or at FOH from that mixer is NOT represented in your recording if you took signal before any of the adjustments including faders. that's one reason the recording may sound underwhelming.

this is different than recording the main stereo output where everything is somewhat balanced and that recording may sound a bit better immediately.

again i think tapping right after the head amp is the best way to record for mixing later, but it just doesn't have anything applied so it's very raw.

I have multi-tracked XR-18 before I upgraded to M32C. The default seems to have the tap right after the preamp gain so any compression, gate, effects, and fader is not captured. I believe you're right that you CAN change where that tap is, but I agree with you that having it in this location is the best place. I have a project template that takes those inputs and then adds EQ and other effects to sweeten the mix. It doesn't sound like studio quality, but band mates have been impressed by it.

@PSea , it sounds like you have a very dry mix at FOH to start with. I'm wondering if where you're playing really colors the sound. This happens in boomy rooms or rooms with a lot of reflections. So you may have EQed your FM9 presets to sound good live but they sound thin in recordings. In other words, they cut and sound good in the room, but don't sound good on headphones or on speakers at home. If your goal is to sound good at live, that's fine.

How you sound at home might not translate directly to home until you understand the differences and can recognize that in your ear. I have to do that when I run sound in some rooms where the board is located in a bass trap and it sounds different there than where 95% of the audience is. I have to make the mix in a way that I know will sound good for them, not where I am mixing.

 

[petesv650]

@chris and @RockYoWorld have great points.

You should be sure you're recording right after the preamp, and then playing back through the XR18 using a saved snapshot of where you ended up with your mix during the gig.

Even though you say you're not applying much EQ, you then go on to say you're applying hi/low filters and fixing your other guitarist and VOX feedback. These EQ changes will make a difference.

One other thing that might be throwing you off: make sure you're not dialing in (and falling in love with) a tone that sounds good in your monitor. Stage noise from the bass and other guitarist, plus Fletcher-Munson, might be affecting how you think you sound vs. how you sound in the band mix when listening at home on your computer speakers.

 

[onebaldbloke]

This may or may not be of assistance in your situation...... but I'll throw it out, anyway.......... the first thing I do at a gig when using a digital or direct setup is check the phase of my monitor/wedge/in-ears against the FOH. And when mixing, remember to check the phase of all your channels and check in mono.

Cheers,
Bob.

 

[PSea]

man, now im really confused. before i go down this rabbit hole, let's keep in mind for the sake of this conversation im talking about just my sound.

RE: is my signal dry/the recording not seeing any PA adjustments? the fm9 is outputting a wet signal w/ eq already set in the fm9. i dont eq it, add compression, fx or gates at the PA. it's unprocessed by the PA as best i can tell. guess im not following this thinking.

RE: PA EQ. Not sure what elese to do for the other guitar. as i said, he can barely figure out how to turn on a light switch. so i have to eq him and add some cuts, but that's just him and right now this isnt my focus. im focused on my tone.

USB tapping (pre-amp etc). this is a digital mixer. i dont believe it has an amp. am i wrong? im using powered speakers. here's how i have the I/O window configured (see pics)





is there something in those pics that would account for my tones sounding worse than what i hear live?

RE: Room Coloring. This was the biggest venue/stage ive played as well as the most crowded. spanned the entire width of the bar almost. probably 16'-20' ceilings and a good 100' to the back wall if not more. so there was very little reverb on the vox. other than that no fx used on the PA. Frankly, im jist not comfortable enough to have mastered on-board fx yet. (tbh it was actually a little intimidating when i looked up and realized just how many people were engaged).

i configure my presets at home. no sound treatment, higher ceilings, tiled floor, big sliding window and i do it at well over 90db. so the surfaces are pretty reflective. so i have to think this isnt a material aspect as im really comparing the recording to what i heard in the room at the gig. regsrding falling in love w presets...non-event at this point. we're a cover band. i use a separate preset for ea song and diff amps/cabs. i pray i find a favorite soon though!

the thing that felt good was that they asked us back for sat nt. so it couldnt have been that bad.

appreciate the input, guys!

 

[petesv650]

I don't have my mixer near me and it's been a very long time since I tried doing what you're doing, but I think you're mostly right.

The only thing I'm thinking is the USB Sends page, you have them set to Analog, vs. Input. I think Input might be the better choice here, but you'll want to read up on it. Definitely not Pre-EQ or any options to right of Pre-EQ (these are all later in the signal chain).

As to your "amp" question, most every mixer will have a channel preamp on each channel to bring the input signal up to a level the mixer can effectively mix with while maintaining a good signal/noise ration. This is true of both analog and digital mixers, and you shouldn't confuse this with "amp" like a PA amplifier. It's just a tiny gain stage to raise the signal up a smidge.

 

[Anthony76]

So, i finally felt like i had enough understanding to try recording a gig. im starting to wish i hadnt. lol. i used reaper recording off the PA (XR-18). when im playing live, i feel like my tone is ok. but when i listen back on the recordings...not so much. learned lots!

the other guitar just completely stops playing a surprising number of times. that is....when he's not 2x louder (he's peaking at -6dbfs when the rest of us are aiming for -18dbfs). uhg.

i also learned i need to change my laptop's power plan to prevent it from going into sleep mode. lost half of the first set to this.

but the real reason im posting this is...what should i trust more? my ears, that are telling me the preset sounds good or the recording that's telling me my preset has too much distortion or is too thin?

how many of you use recordings to tweak tones?

Well, you said it yourself. If it sounds too distorted and thin in the recording it is quite possible that is how it sounds to the audience. The recorded tone is what people hear. What are you listening to your recorded tone through? Try listening to it through a similar speaker at a live gig at live gig at the same type of loudness, probably 95 dbish and ascertain if it still sounds too distorted and thin.

 

[PSea]

Well, you said it yourself. If it sounds too distorted and thin in the recording it is quite possible that is how it sounds to the audience. The recorded tone is what people hear. What are you listening to your recorded tone through? Try listening to it through a similar speaker at a live gig at live gig at the same type of loudness, probably 95 dbish and ascertain if it still sounds too distorted and thin.

i was listening via sony noise canceling headphones. (wh-1000xm4; not exactly cheap, but good point). i also have a pair of sony mdr-7506 i could listen on.

i like the idea of playing the recording back through the PA and listening.

 

[chris]

USB tapping (pre-amp etc). this is a digital mixer. i dont believe it has an amp. am i wrong? im using powered speakers. here's how i have the I/O window configured (see pics)

View attachment 135044

is there something in those pics that would account for my tones sounding worse than what i hear live?

the USB Sends page is what i was talking about. you can see at the bottom there are options "analog, input, pre eq..." and so on. looks like by default you have it recording the "direct" tone, straight from the device (fm9, bass amp, etc) and not anything else.

this is good, but also why the recording may sound dull compared to the PA that has all the other things listed there in its sound.

--
a pre-amp is not an amp. each channel of most mixers has a pre-amp, usually a mic pre-amp. this is what allows you to adjust gain for each channel on a mixer. this is also referred to as the head amp of a mixer channel. so yes, you have 16 of those, one on each XLR channel.

 

[Scotty2992]

"i like the idea of playing the recording back through the PA and listening."

This is the way.

On Reaper, you can send those recorded inputs back thru your XAir in their own channels.

In the XAir app, you can go to the channel input setting, switch the input from the A/D to USB

Then in reaper, right click on the fader and go to hardware output and route that track to its respective fader.


Stand in front of your PA, play it and listen to see if you like it or not. Adjust EQ and effects on your XAir to taste. Then you're set.


This is how I do soundchecks for my band in a new room with my XAir rig.


/ As for making your recordings sound good through ear buds or small speakers. You need to edit your tracks in reaper and adjust there. Live sound and Recording sounds are just two different animals. It's a pain in the ass to marry the two together. especially with band mates that you can't control their tone.


ANOTHER thing: did you put a enchancer block in your Fractal and recorded stereo? That should be a better listening experience for your guitar sound instead of a centered mono in headphones. I always stereoize my guitar if I plan to record and listen back to it.

 

[PSea]

"i like the idea of playing the recording back through the PA and listening."

This is the way.

On Reaper, you can send those recorded inputs back thru your XAir in their own channels.

In the XAir app, you can go to the channel input setting, switch the input from the A/D to USB

Then in reaper, right click on the fader and go to hardware output and route that track to its respective fader.


Stand in front of your PA, play it and listen to see if you like it or not. Adjust EQ and effects on your XAir to taste. Then you're set.


This is how I do soundchecks for my band in a new room with my XAir rig.


/ As for making your recordings sound good through ear buds or small speakers. You need to edit your tracks in reaper and adjust there. Live sound and Recording sounds are just two different animals. It's a pain in the ass to marry the two together. especially with band mates that you can't control their tone.


ANOTHER thing: did you put a enchancer block in your Fractal and recorded stereo? That should be a better listening experience for your guitar sound instead of a centered mono in headphones. I always stereoize my guitar if I plan to record and listen back to it.

thanks! after listening a bit w both guitars mono/centered, i re-rendered and panned both gtrs to separate speakers. easier to hear what was really going on. no enhancer blocks were used intentionally for stereo. only using out1 L to the PA.

so much to learn!

much appreciated, all!

 

[CodePoet]

If your recorded guitar is basically amp/cab, throw some reverb onto the guitar track(s) to make it sound more like it did in the room. Just a straight raw guitar track will seem pretty lifeless without some reverb on it (unless that's what you're going for).

 

[PSea]

my fm9 was producing the reverbs, delays...all fx.

 

[Intoodeep1113]

I did this ONCE before too. Everything sounded bad in the recording. Even the vocalists who I know sounded great in my opinion (since I was running FOH). What you hear in the room and what the raw recording sounds like are 2 terribly different things. I think I was also trying to record the most raw signal I could to try and post-process in reaper.

 

[Riccardo Ros]

I just chime in to share my approach to the live/rehearsal recordings..

I created a small cheap rack with sound card (behringer 1820), wireless uhf iem, power rack.
Everyone connects to my soundcard (voice, acoustic guitar, bass, drum kick mic + drum stereo "overhead", electric guitar).
I mix everything in Reaper and add here and there some compression, limiter, etc..

Routing is:

• output 1-2 to the IEM monitoring system (everyone hears the same stereo mix)
• output 3-4 to mixer or whatever the place have as PA
• output 5-6 to a Bose system (we use it in combination with 3-4 or alone if the place has no PA)

All is driven by a macbook and the result is (for us) great.
We have a consistent in-ear, PA, monitors etc.. sound.
Is it great for recordings? of course it can be improved but it's good enough for enjoining the music when we play and listening back!

CONS

• relying on a mac or pc is hazardous
• everyone has the same in-ears mix

 

[petesv650]

All is driven by a macbook and the result is (for us) great.
We have a consistent in-ear, PA, monitors etc.. sound.
Is it great for recordings? of course it can be improved but it's good enough for enjoining the music when we play and listening back!

CONS

• relying on a mac or pc is hazardous

I've heavily considered doing this kind of setup. It's much lighter weight (literally). And I like that you work entirely in Reaper and can "specialize" in one tool, vs. also learning all the details/quirks of a digital mixer (I'm just an amateur hobbyist so I don't have the natural instincts/workflow memorized like a pro would).

It's funny, when researching this, a lot of people bring up to never do live sound through a laptop. Maybe 20 years ago I'd agree, but these days - I dunno, I never ever have an issue with any of my PCs.

Plus, if you have a dedicated mixing laptop, you can turn off a lot of unnecessary crap - firewall, virus scanning, auto updates, anything that can get in the way. And for the money saved, you can almost justify a second laptop as a backup just in case.

Lastly, I've used an XR18 and X32, and both have had scary gremlin-like issues. All sound suddenly stops, or it refused to power up and takes a few power cycles to boot up. I'd probably argue that they are LESS reliable than a laptop.

 

[Riccardo Ros]

I've heavily considered doing this kind of setup. It's much lighter weight (literally). And I like that you work entirely in Reaper and can "specialize" in one tool, vs. also learning all the details/quirks of a digital mixer (I'm just an amateur hobbyist so I don't have the natural instincts/workflow memorized like a pro would).

It's funny, when researching this, a lot of people bring up to never do live sound through a laptop. Maybe 20 years ago I'd agree, but these days - I dunno, I never ever have an issue with any of my PCs.

Plus, if you have a dedicated mixing laptop, you can turn off a lot of unnecessary crap - firewall, virus scanning, auto updates, anything that can get in the way. And for the money saved, you can almost justify a second laptop as a backup just in case.

Lastly, I've used an XR18 and X32, and both have had scary gremlin-like issues. All sound suddenly stops, or it refused to power up and takes a few power cycles to boot up. I'd probably argue that they are LESS reliable than a laptop.

I have never had a problem, so I basically agree with you...
What I meant is that by using a pc/mac you're using more devices than using only 1 mixer, so the probability that something goes wrong is higher.

I'm an amateur, so even if the mac shuts down unexpectedly... who cares? People will make a laugh and in the meantime the singer will make some acoustic solo versions... but if I was a pro... that's another story

 

[tommo]

I'm an audio engineer. Trust your ears. Getting it to sound great on "tape" is a skill. They don't call it engineering for nothing. Energy builds differently in a recording. Knowing how that energy will combine into new energy must be learned.

 

[RockYoWorld]

It's funny, when researching this, a lot of people bring up to never do live sound through a laptop. Maybe 20 years ago I'd agree, but these days - I dunno, I never ever have an issue with any of my PCs.

Everyone finds their own way of doing things, but I'm still be in the camp of "never use a PC to mix a live gig." Horror stories are anecdotal, but I've got one:

About 5-6 years ago, I played at my friend's church. They had upgraded when wedges to IEM's. I was used to using IEM's with my cover band, so that was no problem. The problem was that my friend who was leading the band from drums did not trust the sound guys at the church. So he had all the signals going to his MacBook first so he could EQ and add effects before sending it to the board. I can't remember if he sent the channels separately to the board or if it was just a stereo mix.

Anyways, we were playing one of those slow ballad songs they play before "The Message" that's designed to emotionally engage people. This one starts off quiet, then has a long build up before everyone really comes in with a big sound. Well, we did the build up and just as we went to get into the big part, the MacBook messed everything up. All the channels had latency/delay by like a second or so. Everything was direct (guitar, bass, drums, keys), so there was no way to take out your ears and hear correctly.

It resulted in all of us playing very apart from each other. I'd strum a chord and then hear it a second later. All of us on stage were looking at each other like, "what do we do?" until we just stopped playing. It really sound like when you fail a song on Guitar Hero or Rock Band. We then just stood there in silence in front of about 400 people. After about 5 seconds, some old lady started clapping. Everyone joined in. We just walked off the stage in embarrassment. We quickly found humor in the situation. I wish I had access to the video they took of the service. It was hilarious watching it back.

Of course any piece of gear has a chance to fail. I think a PC/Mac has a higher chance of failing in a live system. You're running a full OS with all sorts of stuff running in the background just to have a single software program do something that mixers are designed solely to do. I get there's a learning curve on how to use the gear, but it's a really valuable skill to have, so it's worth it to learn. Honestly, you can make a lot of money running sound for other local bands if you want to as well.

To be fair, I have mainly used XR-18 (X-Air), X32 (in different formats), and M32. We have had a couple issues over the past 8 years, but none of them were show stoppers and properly doing things or maintaining the rig will prevent them:

• XR-18 (X-Air): I bought this unit used from a bar through a friend who thought it was broken for $100. I believe he just had XLR cable issues, but it may speak to it not being in the best of shape. I used that mixer for home use, small gigs, and as an IEM mixer for my original band until recently. I noticed that sometimes, I would turn it on and the power light would be blinking at different rates and the mixer would not work properly. The only way to "fix it" was to whack it a few times before the power light went steady. I think the Power Supply is going out on it. I upgraded to the M32C before it ever fully died at a gig.
• X32 Rack: We use one of these in my cover band's IEM rig. A few of the production companies we work with will just connect their iPad to our mixer to mix, especially at smaller venues. A year ago, we had an issue all of a sudden where the mixer wouldn't connect to the networked stage box (DL32) we use to connect all the channels (the rack only has 16 XLR inputs and we need more). Turns out that the ethercon (maybe it was just an ethernet cable) got pinched and shorted out the connection and fried the network jack in the X32. If we did better maintaining of that cable, that wouldn't have happened. In that case, we were lucky that the production company had another X32 rack in their trailer. We were able to bring it in, hook new network cables up to it, load our scene from the first X32 on it, and still start the show on time with our Scene/IEM mixes saved.

Just my experiences I thought I'd share.