Tweeter squeal ruined the rehearsal last night!

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Daribo

Member
Ok - the title was a little dramatic, but this is an issue I'm curious how others are dealing with.

I play in an 80's cover band and we run in-ears and I'm D.I'd into the PA as far as the audience is concerned. I also use a Matrix Q12a as a personal, back-line style monitor for me to get a little 'oomph' and feedback as required. It's all at pretty moderate volumes though - nothing too loud.

I have experienced tweeter squeal with my Custom Shop '63 Stratocaster as well as my PRS 513 when in 'single coil mode' and I know single coils are more prone to it than humbuckers. I have only ever experienced this on my more 'gainy' patches (medium gain is about as far as I get to) and have eliminated this by simply backing of the volume just a touch.


Last night I played a rehearsal with a rock covers band I am depping for at the Weekend and they are LOUD. I had to turn up way louder than normal and whilst the sound did thin out a little, I was still happy with my guitar tone.

Unfortunately, the tweeter squeal was quite unbearable though - with my Strat kicking off like a mic being pointed at a monitor (not good) - this was happening even with my 'slight breakup sound' when engaging a wah effect - a virtually clean sound. Neck pickup was the worst.

I tried walking quite some distance away from the speaker, but it still happened (nevermind the fact that I don't have the luxury of moving too far away when playing Weddings etc).

I know there is no 'cure' for this and it's something unique to FRFR, but there must be some of you guys out there playing Strats through the Axe FX at volume and using FRFR amps? How do you deal with it?

The squeal was so strong that without completely muting the signal - a noise gate would not do the trick.

Do I just think - screw it and have to use a Les Paul? Seems to be quite a problem when promoting the FRFR route for live use and not one I've seen discussed much here.

It did somewhat ruin my enjoyment of playing and not something I can afford to happen on a Wedding gig.

Thanks as always for any responses :)
 
There are a ton of single coil players who run loud...I would say your patch needs to be tweaked for the volume you were playing at. To make sure I'm understanding you correctly, it was your guitar monitor that was feeding back right? Did you try turning the monitor away from you? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding your setup. The tweeter itself isn't to blame as every stage monitor is running a tweeter.
 
What kind of volume did you dial your tones in at? If I had to guess, from what you've said, you dialed it in at a pretty low volume with your other band. Sound "thins out" with higher volume, etc. I play Teles and Strats with the Axe using FRFR and I don't have this issue. My presence and treble settings on some of the amps I use are generally very low. Presence sometimes even all the way off. Treble sometimes below 9:00. I would not characterize this as a problem that is unique to FRFR. More like, it's because you CAN dial in good tones at lower volumes with a modeler that you may forget to account for Fletcher-Munson.
 
Thanks for the responses. According to Cliff - 'tweeter squeal' (which I'm almost certain I'm experiencing) is exclusive to FRFR. I don't begin to understand the science behind it.

Although the patches were dialled in at a lower volume - they were not by any means dialled in at 'low' volume. They would comfortably (and do, on a regular basis in my band) keep pace with a live drum kit without it being bashed seven bells out of.

I understand that when a guitar sound increases in volume - it does tend to require tweaking and can become a little harsh in the highs, but I don't see why that/F.M should cause this kind of squealing feedback (I never ever had this issue with my guitar amps in my life and at times, I've run them very, very loud.

This is happening if I don't play and mute the strings with my hand, so I can't see why the specifics of the guitar tone would cause this. I also tend to run the treble quite low on the amp models.

Warlock II - you may have a point, maybe a patch needs to be build from scratch for that kind of volume, but I'm still not convinced it would solve the issue and I certainly don't have the inclination to build a virtual pedal board from scratch just for a one-off stand-in gig.

It does interest me though, as I do experience it in my band at lower volumes and it's a pain having to constantly play with the volume to find the point where it disappears. I guess volume just exasperated the issue.

I didn't try turning the monitor away from me, but I did walk around the side etc and the problem persisted. It's a Matrix Q12a, so should be top-notch as a FRFR system goes. It cost enough..
 
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Cliff: "Tweeter squeal is magnetic feedback from the speaker's tweeter. Move further away from the speakers. This is a phenomenon unique to FRFR solutions."

Cliff: "Magnetic feedback is an issue unique to FRFR amplification. The tweeter creates a magnetic feedback loop with the pickups. The closer you get to the speaker the more feedback until the point it squeals. The only solution is to move away from the speaker or turn down the gain/volume."

Cliff: "The high-pitched feedback is pickup squeal and is caused by electromagnetic feedback from the speaker to your pickups. FRFR tends to exacerbate this since you have a tweeter feeding back high frequencies. A noise gate can help but the best solution is to move away from the speaker."
 
I wonder if a notch filter in the signal chain could be used to kill the feedback. Did you have any of the higher frequencies cut in your preset(s)?
 
axel said:
I wonder if a notch filter in the signal chain could be used to kill the feedback. Did you have any of the higher frequencies cut in your preset(s)?
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Hi there - apart from a standard global eq setting I use for the Matrix to make it sound a little nicer to my ears, the only eq I use is in the amp model itself. I do have to cut 4k and 8k quite a bit and boost at 500 on the global for the Matrix feed) to make it sound a bit warmer and as close to the PA sound as possible, but that's across all my patches and I think due to the sound of the monitor. I do not apply the same eq settings to the front of house feed.
 
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rather than trying to nail this with a single big band-aid, you may fair better and retain your tone better if you apply several smaller ones..

- make a copy of your presets and place them in a different bank.. these are the ones you will be dialling in for "propper loud" use
- Gain: back it off a little: folk tend to use a lot of gain because it makes the guitar sensitive. High volume will make the guitar a little more sensitive anyhow, so the extra gain is not so important
- Compression: back it off a little: the same applies to compression as applies to gain
- EQ: all that volume will mean that the extreme highs and lows will not need to be quite so strong so back these off a little. you'll note that when you play with this EQ at low volume that your tone will be lifeless.. but at high volume, Fletcher-Munson will kick in and make the highs and lows you dialled out strong and exciting again..
- gating: your soloing tones will naturally have a little more gain, volume and ambient fx.. strengthen the gate a little
- ambient fx: the reverb and delay will contribute to helping feedback occur.. also, at high volume, these fx can get overpowering.. it's ok to back these off a little.. don't forget that at high volume, all your quiet stuff in the back ground [reverb / delay] gets loud too.. but it gets loud in a non-linear way.. the high volume "dryer" settings will sound great at high volume... but bland and bone dry at low volume.. but that's normal..

so... the moral is.. rather than drastic cuts in gain / compression.. or drastic gating [which will kill your tone and playability]..
make small cuts to many things that are specifically targetted at high freqs, gain, compression, "note lengthening" [delay / reverb]
then... gate just a little harder..
 
Daribo said:
Thanks for the responses. According to Cliff - 'tweeter squeal' (which I'm almost certain I'm experiencing) is exclusive to FRFR. I don't begin to understand the science behind it.
Click to expand...

Alex, I'll take Guitar Cabinets Don't Possess for $100.
 
Yep. Lower treble and presence... And gain. I have hb, p90 and sc. The two latter would tend to squeeeeeel at LOUD settings, if i kepp the low volume settings. You could do this in the global eq. I just roll of the tone on the guitars if there is a problem.
 
hammeron56 said:
Are you sure that the pickup hasn't become microphonic?
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This x100. Is your pickup potted? If the answer is no, then the answer is likely that your pickup is microphonic. I have a Duncan Jazz covered humbucker that squeals like crazy at high volumes. It's actually a resonance in the pickup cover in that case.
 
Or tell the rest of the band to turn it the freak down a bit... Either something is really wrong with your setup or they (and you) are playing at excruciating volumes. Hope you're wearing protection. My left ears starts to distort at anything over about 100dB nowadays.



I can't imagine enjoying a wedding with a band THAT loud.
It's not a concert where people come to see the band. It's a family gathering where people come firstly to celebrate the union of two people and secondly to see eachother. A band is tertiary at best. Know thy place.
 
Hellbat said:
This x100. Is your pickup potted? If the answer is no, then the answer is likely that your pickup is microphonic. I have a Duncan Jazz covered humbucker that squeals like crazy at high volumes. It's actually a resonance in the pickup cover in that case.
Click to expand...

I think it unlikely that all three pickups on my Strat, plus all pickups on my PRS 513 would all suddenly become microphonic?
 
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Dutch said:
Or tell the rest of the band to turn it the freak down a bit... Either something is really wrong with your setup or they (and you) are playing at excruciating volumes. Hope you're wearing protection. My left ears starts to distort at anything over about 100dB nowadays.



I can't imagine enjoying a wedding with a band THAT loud.
It's not a concert where people come to see the band. It's a family gathering where people come firstly to celebrate the union of two people and secondly to see eachother. A band is tertiary at best. Know thy place.
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Dutch - 100% agree but as I said, this is a one-off gig and it's not my band so I'm not in a position to start giving orders. I'm turning up, playing, getting paid and that's it. I was just hoping to enjoy it a little more with my rig.
 
Daribo said:
Dutch - 100% agree but as I said, this is a one-off gig and it's not my band so I'm not in a position to start giving orders. I'm turning up, playing, getting paid and that's it. I was just hoping to enjoy it a little more with my rig.
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I read you usually dont run that loud, so it wasn't directed at you. It was at the other band. I could have been clearer about that, sorry.

Is your tone excessively bright at that volume? f.i. Clark Kent's IRs almost all are pretty bright and thin for me and I thought I liked bright.
All of Clarky's comments apply.
The new passive EQ could be useful.
 
Dutch said:
I read you usually dont run that loud, so it wasn't directed at you. It was at the other band. I could have been clearer about that, sorry.

Is your tone excessively bright at that volume? f.i. Clark Kent's IRs almost all are pretty bright and thin for me and I thought I liked bright.
All of Clarky's comments apply.
The new passive EQ could be useful.
Click to expand...

I didn't take it as a dig at me at all! Just agreeing that I wish I could tell them to back off the stage volume a little, as it does make it all the more enjoyable all-round.

I wouldn't say it was excessively bright at that volume, no - but definitely a bit brighter than I'd like, so I will try and dial out the treble a little on the amp models themselves, maybe touch the mid up a bit and slightly increase the gate.

Won't have a chance to try this out before the actual night and so I won't make any drastic changes.

I'll also go armed with my Les Paul, in case the squeal is a major problem

Thanks for all the suggestions and comments - all perfectly valid.
 
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