Tonex Pedal will change the market

[Rex Rox]

Coming from Mister Fowleri, I can assure you that this thread is not endorsed by any competing companies...

Maybe not endorsed, but still the posts over the last 2 days I have seen are strange from "Mister Fowleri" or anyone who actually owns/uses Fractal products. Tone-X vs FAS isn't really a thing. In fact the comparisons he makes are oblique at best even for the other brands he mentions.

But apparently you have inside knowledge that we are not privy to?

 

[sprint]

More companies will follow suit by offering more affordable options, thus forcing the modeler/profiler kings to reconsider their prices.

Lowering prices is not the only response option to cheap market entries: maintaining a hi quality bar, and offering new/improved features can, and does, and has for some time, held the line on any mass exodus to cheaper alternatives. Moot point anyway since Tonex doesn't afaik, compete with modellers / mfx (Kemper maybe, kinda, a bit) - new product category really: stand alone capture pedal.

Tonex pedal is very limited and one important thing, IT CANT CAPTURE/PROFILE AMPS

Really? - I must be misunderstanding something as I thought that's exactly what Tonex does.

To each his own but I like component based models I can tweak immediately with authenticity, as opposed to labouring thru some long and convoluted capture process to get a snapshot of specific settings with limited adjustability, or taking 100:1 shots sifting thru mountains of posted captures to find one I like. Love IK Amplitube tho - been a long time customer.

 

[Rex Rox]

To each his own but I like component based models I can tweak immediately with authenticity,

Exactly! That's why Tone-X vs Fractal or even the other brands he mentioned isn't really a thing!

 

[Sleestak]

I'd love for everything to be free. But it isn't. So I spend money on things that meet my needs, balancing my desire for high quality with the reality of my available doubloons. For the past decade, it's been Fractal. I like it that other equipment is coming out, and that there are choices. Kemper, Headrush, and Line6 (and others) make great high-quality gear. But every allegedly competing device that I encounter is either (1) inferior in terms of quality / capabilities, or (2) arguably at a similar bar as the AxeFX but at the same price. The AxeFX has raised my expectations for all other music gear. Either you exist at that level of quality or you are targeting a different market segment, which is fine. I happen to be very satisfied with my Fractal gear. It turns out that in reality, high quality with lots of functionality is expensive to produce.

I won't constrain anyone's options, and it's always your choice to spend your money as you please. But when in doubt, visit the Fractal Audio artist page. Those people can have any equipment they want, and they choose Fractal. They may be well-known musicians, but they're not insane. If there were a box that met the same needs at 10% the price, they'd be using it (heck, we all would).

 

[Frodebro]

Maybe not endorsed, but still the posts over the last 2 days I have seen are strange from "Mister Fowleri" or anyone who actually owns/uses Fractal products. Tone-X vs FAS isn't really a thing. In fact the comparisons he makes are oblique at best even for the other brands he mentions.

But apparently you have inside knowledge that we are not privy to?

Not inside knowledge, just knowledge in general of his posting history. Grab yourself an adult beverage, do a quick search, and check out some of his other threads. Okay, maybe two adult beverages...

 

[Rex Rox]

I own 6 tube amps. All are highly sought after, 2 are very expensive boutiques, 1 is a vintage fender, and 3 are mesa's. I have been very lucky to have played so many varieties of tube amps in my almost 40 years of playing guitar that most people might want to slap me. Well many people might want to slap me anyway.

But IME none of the capture stuff comes close to a high end tube amp - even if you try to capture that amp. Especially in terms of the way you can dial in a high end tube amp. If you do not know this then it is likely you have never played a high end tube amp. I tried everything? before I bought Fractal: Software plugins, Helix, GT-1000, Kemper, Headrush, QC and recently Tone-X.

I found that only FAS gear responds closely to the actual physical amp being modeled (including the ones I have sitting right here). That's why I own FAS and returned or rejected all the others.

All the model capture solutions (including NAM) will never give you the deep dive available in FAS models. On top of that, the other modeling companies simply do not create as authentic base tones for the modeled amps, at least not yet. Then you add in the ability to deep dive into the amp model and ...

Since FAS does all this today, once the others catch up, I wonder where will FAS be?



Although by my estimation I'd give them a much more comfortable lead than the one in the pic!

 

[randocaster]

More companies will follow suit by offering more affordable options, thus forcing the modeler/profiler kings to reconsider their prices.

All popular physical modelers for many years have been over $1500-2500.

We're at a point in the time where more companies will provide more affordable options, new modeler pedals, racks, and boxes at affordable prices under $1000 if not $500

Why buy a $1800 Quad Cortex or Kemper when a $399 Tonex can sound almost as good?

Options were limited before, it was either software plugins or all the way to $1500+ modelers.

The great equalizer is about to come. More companies will come out with new physical modelers to compete with the big boys, offering more options to the average Joe. Now the bigger companies will have to work harder to earn Joe's money.

This is the greatest time to be a guitarist. The landscape of expensive modelers may change with the new arrival of affordable competitors who can offer very similar tones and features at a fraction of the price.

 

[ruso]

The great equalizer is about to come.

There’s nothing great about the equalizer in the TONEX Pedal.

 

[laxu]

Really? - I must be misunderstanding something as I thought that's exactly what Tonex does.

Tonex pedal itself cannot create captures, you need to do those on your computer with the Tonex app. This is the right approach as your computer tends to have way more processing power, or cloud-based solution can be used. That allows the pedal to be simpler and lower processing power and therefore much cheaper too.

Of course something like the Kemper or QC is easier to work with when the capture functionality can be setup within the device, but Tonex or NAM are more accurate.

Tonex is just a "capture player" really and I expect we will see a lot more devices like it in the coming years. The technology for the Tonex and NAM captures is based on the freely available PyTorch framework, so replicating the Tonex and doing it better is not a high bar.

The recently released Atomic Amps Toneocracy VST plugin supports NAM models so NAM might eventually become the "defacto capture" model since it's open source etc. Just using these would provide any new device a pool of captures and the device/app could just work better than the Tonex pedal and app.

IK's failing is that despite being first to market with a capture player pedal, they can't design user interfaces worth a damn and seem to have little desire to improve their platform, so they are likely to get forgotten the moment someone makes a better mousetrap.

 

[sprint]

Tonex pedal itself cannot create captures, you need to do those on your computer with the Tonex app. This is the right approach as your computer tends to have way more processing power, or cloud-based solution can be used. That allows the pedal to be simpler and lower processing power and therefore much cheaper too.

Of course something like the Kemper or QC is easier to work with when the capture functionality can be setup within the device, but Tonex or NAM are more accurate.

Tonex is just a "capture player" really and I expect we will see a lot more devices like it in the coming years. The technology for the Tonex and NAM captures is based on the freely available PyTorch framework, so replicating the Tonex and doing it better is not a high bar.

The recently released Atomic Amps Toneocracy VST plugin supports NAM models so NAM might eventually become the "defacto capture" model since it's open source etc. Just using these would provide any new device a pool of captures and the device/app could just work better than the Tonex pedal and app.

IK's failing is that despite being first to market with a capture player pedal, they can't design user interfaces worth a damn and seem to have little desire to improve their platform, so they are likely to get forgotten the moment someone makes a better mousetrap.

Thanks! Much clearer to me now.

 

[nicolasrivera]

Really? - I must be misunderstanding something as I thought that's exactly what Tonex does.

the pedal can only play the captures, to capture an amp you need a computer.

 

[RevDrucifer]

I have a standing invitation with Fowleri- he is welcome to come check out my Fractal gear and Ibanez JEM as long as he can stay away from talking doodoo on the internet. I’ve even offered to give him a walkthrough of how to set up a Floyd as he was having a lot of issues with his previously. This invitation has been standing for nearly a year, he has yet to take me up on it, despite us living in the same city.

 

[weird guitar person]

More companies will follow suit by offering more affordable options, thus forcing the modeler/profiler kings to reconsider their prices.

All popular physical modelers for many years have been over $1500-2500.

We're at a point in the time where more companies will provide more affordable options, new modeler pedals, racks, and boxes at affordable prices under $1000 if not $500

Why buy a $1800 Quad Cortex or Kemper when a $399 Tonex can sound almost as good?

Options were limited before, it was either software plugins or all the way to $1500+ modelers.

The great equalizer is about to come. More companies will come out with new physical modelers to compete with the big boys, offering more options to the average Joe. Now the bigger companies will have to work harder to earn Joe's money.

This is the greatest time to be a guitarist. The landscape of expensive modelers may change with the new arrival of affordable competitors who can offer very similar tones and features at a fraction of the price.

I’m envisioning a breadboard on a street corner proclaiming, “Repent! The end is near!”

In a previous post you mentioned that you hadn’t… Did you ever get around to purchasing a Fractal product? Or are you still shopping?

IKMultimedia, around forever, has done some surprisingly decent stuff with their later Amplitube related stuff, which I own, but I quickly gravitated back to Fractal for several major reasons.

 

[randocaster]

I’m envisioning a breadboard on a street corner proclaiming, “Repent! The end is near!”

In a previous post you mentioned that you hadn’t… Did you ever get around to purchasing a Fractal product? Or are you still shopping?

IKMultimedia, around forever, has done some surprisingly decent stuff with their later Amplitube related stuff, which I own, but I gravitate back to Fractal for several major reasons.

Prosumer gear is and always has been pretty affordable. That's the goal.

So let's say capture tech truly gets to the point of totally replacing modelling. (It's not close to there yet, but let's pretend).

Professional gear costs $$$ to make full stop. So even if the computing resources to run a capture is less than a Fractal model, it will still take a a lot to make a device that can equal what a FM3, FM9 and AXE3 can do as an all in one professional solution.

Inexpensive products serve a purpose, and I'm not slagging them. But pro gear costs, and that isn't going to change.

 

[weird guitar person]

Inexpensive products serve a purpose, and I'm not slagging them. But pro gear costs, and that isn't going to change.

The thing about IKMultimedia is that they seem to stick their toes in the truly professional domain but then fall short in other areas. And the thing about the ToneX product and technology is that, even when just playing back others' IRs, it assumes one has a computer and other outboard I/O to get professional results. Great for those already invested, but a lot of obfuscated cost relative to standalone units where the editors aren't doing the heavy lifting.

They've not been good about keeping their Mac drivers up to date on hardware, making it expensive for teachers that end up supporting students struggling with the hardware.

I like the ToneX concept, but given my experience with their other hardware, not interested short run.

 

[Stratman68]

More companies will follow suit by offering more affordable options, thus forcing the modeler/profiler kings to reconsider their prices.

All popular physical modelers for many years have been over $1500-2500.

We're at a point in the time where more companies will provide more affordable options, new modeler pedals, racks, and boxes at affordable prices under $1000 if not $500

Why buy a $1800 Quad Cortex or Kemper when a $399 Tonex can sound almost as good?

Options were limited before, it was either software plugins or all the way to $1500+ modelers.

The great equalizer is about to come. More companies will come out with new physical modelers to compete with the big boys, offering more options to the average Joe. Now the bigger companies will have to work harder to earn Joe's money.

This is the greatest time to be a guitarist. The landscape of expensive modelers may change with the new arrival of affordable competitors who can offer very similar tones and features at a fraction of the price.

No it won't! Sorry!

 

[MicroMort]

I spent the time getting a tonex pedal and captured my most used tones from my FM3. It sounds great. I do have some pedals before and after the tonex. This is a super simple backup board that I have just in case my FM3 ever dies unexpectedly (unlikely). It was a fun project to put together, but if I could do it all over, I'd just save up for a 2nd FM3.

 

[BBN]

More companies will follow suit by offering more affordable options, thus forcing the modeler/profiler kings to reconsider their prices.

All popular physical modelers for many years have been over $1500-2500.

We're at a point in the time where more companies will provide more affordable options, new modeler pedals, racks, and boxes at affordable prices under $1000 if not $500

Why buy a $1800 Quad Cortex or Kemper when a $399 Tonex can sound almost as good?

Options were limited before, it was either software plugins or all the way to $1500+ modelers.

The great equalizer is about to come. More companies will come out with new physical modelers to compete with the big boys, offering more options to the average Joe. Now the bigger companies will have to work harder to earn Joe's money.

This is the greatest time to be a guitarist. The landscape of expensive modelers may change with the new arrival of affordable competitors who can offer very similar tones and features at a fraction of the price.

I don't think any of the 'kings' are going to reconsider prices in any substantial way.
What they may do is reconsider slimmed down options, for a lower price.

I own the Tonex plugin - it's fun. But it has 1/10th of the capabilities of the FM3, but is only 1/3rd the price.

Tonex to FM3 (or any fractal product) is Apples to Oranges. They're not the same, other than that they are both 'digital pedal solutions'.

All that said, I do love all these new products hitting the market because it creates new ideas and perspective on the next generation of products. Healthy competition is good for us all.

But substantial 'price drops' on existing products....I don't see how that's feasible.

 

[Fowleri]

I have a standing invitation with Fowleri- he is welcome to come check out my Fractal gear and Ibanez JEM as long as he can stay away from talking doodoo on the internet. I’ve even offered to give him a walkthrough of how to set up a Floyd as he was having a lot of issues with his previously. This invitation has been standing for nearly a year, he has yet to take me up on it, despite us living in the same city.

not being able to "test" the fractal is not the reason I don't buy it. I have other priorities. I'm a frugal man. I'm in no rush to buy a fractal unit when the neural DSP plugins are good enough, especially since I don't play live, don't tour, make zero money out of this hobby and only play alone at home

It's a $2300 want, a desire, but not a need.

You talk about the Floyd Rose issue, that was years ago like 2020, since I've learned how to do it myself by watching videos, reading, etc.

At the time, I simply didn't do enough research but was also intimidated by it and possibly messing something up, so I took my guitars to a couple of techs, who both did it wrong. These were techs with good reviews on Google, yelp, etc.

The first tech charged me $75, didn't polish frets, only did one turn around the pegs, the bridge angle was too elevated, and the strings were buzzing. I told him they buzzing, mofo said is your style until he played it and said yeah they buzz

I went to the second tech, $90, at least he polished the frets. I asked him do you measure the string action? He said, I go by feel wut he gave me the guitar with the bridge angle sunken in

At the time, I didn't know with the original edge, you had to go by the little square on the side rather than the bridge itself, apparently, these dudes didn't know either

If it had been an original Floyd Rose, their setups would've been ok, but still overpriced

whether I have a fractal or not, or if I know how to do it my own setups or not, isn't going to change who I am

I'm a man of entertainment, argument, chaos, and controversy, but most importantly, a universal being

 

[skolacki]

not being able to "test" the fractal is not the reason I don't buy it. I have other priorities. I'm a frugal man. I'm in no rush to buy a fractal unit when the neural DSP plugins are good enough, especially since I don't play live, don't tour, make zero money out of this hobby and only play alone at home

It's a $2300 want, a desire, but not a need.

You talk about the Floyd Rose issue, that was years ago like 2020, since I've learned how to do it myself by watching videos, reading, etc.

At the time, I simply didn't do enough research but was also intimidated by it and possibly messing something up, so I took my guitars to a couple of techs, who both did it wrong. These were techs with good reviews on Google, yelp, etc.

The first tech charged me $75, didn't polish frets, only did one turn around the pegs, the bridge angle was too elevated, and the strings were buzzing. I told him they buzzing, mofo said is your style until he played it and said yeah they buzz

I went to the second tech, $90, at least he polished the frets. I asked him do you measure the string action? He said, I go by feel wut he gave me the guitar with the bridge angle sunken in

At the time, I didn't know with the original edge, you had to go by the little square on the side rather than the bridge itself, apparently, these dudes didn't know either

If it had been an original Floyd Rose, their setups would've been ok, but still overpriced

whether I have a fractal or not, or if I know how to do it my own setups or not, isn't going to change who I am

I'm a man of entertainment, argument, chaos, and controversy, but most importantly, a universal being

If you haven’t bought a FAS modeler by now, what are you doing hanging on this forum? That’s just weird. It’s a free forum and anyone can join, but why??