Tone wasn't good enough for recording

H

hayashi

Member
I've had my Axe Fx Ultra for a few months now and dialed in the best tones of my life for live use. This weekend I headed into the recording studio to record a track for a tribute album. I tweaked my tones at home by recording myself to my computer to make sure my patches translated well. I'm a novice at home recording.

I told the recording engineer that I'd be bringing in my own amp and that "if the tones aren't good, I'm cool to use your gear". So it came time to record my guitar and asked only for a XLR cable. He confirmed that I didn't need a cab and I said that I'd be going direct. He gave me a look but said ok. I played through my patch and he said that it didn't sound that great. We then went to his amp and he mixed a Marshall JVM with a Mesa Rectifier and that tone blew my tone away.

It has nothing to do with the Axe Fx, but more like my inexperience in dialing good tones for recordings. I'm bummed because I thought I'd hit it out of the park. I went home and was trying to dial in tones that match what I got in the studio, but now I'm second guessing myself everywhere. Not enough highs? Too much gain? Not enough mids? Do I even have the right amp?

GAH. It's not GAS I have now (the AFX can do it), just the typical "is A tone better or B better" which my band mates say "they sound the same dude".
 
Did you ask the engineer from the studio for dry tracks of just your mic'd guitar signals from the JVM and Dual Rec? If not, I would do that ASAP and try your best to match those tones using just an amp block and cab block from the Axe-FX. If you're trying to match tones while listening to the guitars in the final mix it is going to be a really fruitless endeavor IMO.

Next, you should ask him what post-processing he applied to your guitar tracks during the mix stage. Then you can either replicate it on your Axe-FX patch or just do it in the DAW when you're home recording.
 
Problem is dude that your engineer is a digital skeptic and they're hard to convert though we have many tube guys here. I'd say get more time to hear both the recordings and your patches. The reason I know is because I did almost the same thing when I had bearly gotten my axe fx and I had the guy who's showing me the engineer ropes try it out and he wasn't convinced. I felt a bit bummed but now I realize I wasn't very keen on making patches so now I've improved and I'm thinking of doing that again. If he also made you do Di tracks, try getting those and reamping them. Or have one of us reamp it :)
 
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If you take more than a few months to check out your ultra that would put you in the category of "normal human being", so maybe you cannot get a better sound out of that than an engineer using the same amps and mics in the same studio for what a few years? Look at it like a goal and keep making presets. One way to go is to keep tweaking the same preset and then save a new version of it when you work on it, then you can go back and forth and check how its progressing. That advice is by the way courtesey of Jay :)

One thing though: With what speakers did you monitor the stuff you recorded on your computer? I don't think the average computer speaker is very close in quality to a studio monitor, just a thought.

Jens
 
How did his tone blow yours away? Did you hear both tones in the same environment (same mix, same volume, etc.?) I rarely hear any tone by itself that blows me away. But once you start comparing tones with different volumes, post-processing, etc., you may start making comparisons that aren't fair.

You really don't need to obsessively tweak to get a sound that's going to sound great in a mix (assuming the rest of the mix isn't recorded like crap). I currently have a friend mixing my band's first album and he was blown away by the guitar sounds I was getting. Mind you, this guy plays some very nice instruments through very nice amplification and the credentials are solid. He had just finished recording with one of his bands and let me hear the guitar player's tracks, which I thought sounded fantastic. He proceeded to tell me that he felt my Axe-Fx Ultra tracks were way better, which was a pretty proud moment.

All I did was take my live patch, add a cab sim that was comparable to what I play through, and start tracking direct. I printed as dry as possible, only using delay and modulation when I needed "my" sound. I left all the reverb to the post-processing to keep from muddying things up. I then double tracked with a different amp sim (honestly, dialed in within about 15 minutes) and a different guitar. He's mixed it with minimal post-processing (a little eq and reverb to make things sit right) and things are sounding really good for an album recorded on a $0.00 budget.

Don't let the guy sell you on a "real" amp based on the merits of one track alone. You should at least double track the guitars and see how everything sits in the mix before passing judgment. The whole will definitely be greater than the sum of its parts!
 
afxwinter said:
Did you have the poweramp simulation enabled on the axe?
What IRs were you using in the studio?
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Yes, poweramp sims were on. I use a K12 and no longer own a cabinet. I was using the stock IRs which I don't really have issues with, specificallyI was using the V30 with a 121 mic. He used a the same. Not sure which mic but I assume a 57.

AdamCook said:
Did you ask the engineer from the studio for dry tracks of just your mic'd guitar signals from the JVM and Dual Rec?
Click to expand...

I only have the final mix so you have a good point about matching that. I recall from memory (which is a bad thing) how my tone vs his tone sounded through the studio monitors so I can get in the ballpark. I'm not sure what post-processing he applied, but it didn't seem like much.

Sammetal91 said:
Problem is dude that your engineer is a digital skeptic and they're hard to convert though we have many tube guys here. I'd say get more time to hear both the recordings and your patches.
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He likes to use his own equipment because he knows how to dial in consistent tones quickly. He wanted me to use his guitars too but I'm not that confident to play on someone else's guitar.

Jens said:
If you take more than a few months to check out your ultra that would put you in the category of "normal human being", so maybe you cannot get a better sound out of that than an engineer using the same amps and mics in the same studio for what a few years?

One thing though: With what speakers did you monitor the stuff you recorded on your computer? I don't think the average computer speaker is very close in quality to a studio monitor, just a thought.
Click to expand...

Good point. The only thing is that even though I got good tone on the recording, it wasn't my tone. We know how us guitarist are obsessed with getting "our tone" but in the long run it doesn't really matter. I was using regular computer speakers and my 2 powered monitors to listen to tone, but I really should get studio monitors.

I guess overall I'm just bummed that my "my" tone wasn't very good and feeling a bit butt hurt. Now I'm just doubting things I hear and don't know if one is better than the other. But then to be told by someone who has heard a lot of tone to say it wasn't very good... that just sucks.
 
Figuring out how you sound and how you want to sound is more an ongoing process than a goal for most people, both are changing
all the time.

Last weekend I did a gig as a sub with one band and was very happy with how that sounded, and played a gig with my own band
which made me rethink the preset I've used there for more than a month. I just try to analyze what I need to change.

Maybe that is something to try and figure out, what's the difference? What needs to change?

Jens
 
You should've asked him what was it in your tone from the axe fx that he didn't like or that you felt lacking. Unless he gives the "feel" bs that a lot of tube guys use, he'll probably give you specifics. Most studio guys like to use their own equipment besides the fact that he knows how to use it to make sure that Murphy's law doesn't come into play with outside equipment. Also, not everyone has good gear. It keeps the engineer in a safe spot if the band comes in and gets pissed because their crap performance along with crap gear doesn't sound like gold. Not saying you suck but every engineer has to deal with a good portion of "those bands".
 
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I remember once tracking all guitars on an album with one amp head. the studio's favourite Laney GH100L. good no nonsense amp, worked really well with the old Marshall cab they had set up. we layered that with sansamp tracks and it sounded great.
It's just one less thing to think about and it saves the most precious thing in the studio: time.

but that was before the axe

Sounds like the recording engineer was also the producer and mixing engineer, and these guys have a bit of an ego.
Someone working as a pro in this field must be pretty dull to not see the many many advantages the Axe has to offer - even if you run it through a poweramp and mic a cab. It's part of their job to know the tools, have the tools and being able to handle them.
 
True, but if he hears the tone, does not like it and don't want to spend the time in the studio to fix it (maybe because he does not know the axe?) then
that is not a really bad proffesional decision, probably the easiest and quickest for him.

The was a band leader/arranger/composer in Denmark who was quoted for saying: " It does not need to be art but it does need to be finished!"

Jens
 
NaturalScience said:
How did his tone blow yours away? Did you hear both tones in the same environment (same mix, same volume, etc.?)
Click to expand...

I think his tone was heavier, clearer and overall didn't sound amateurish and grainy. It's kind of hard to describe. I probably should have had him do the guitar tone, and then go back to the Axe Fx and see where it was lacking and ask for input. He would have probably helped out.

shasha said:
Were you listening to the amp live or through the console (same as the AxeFX)?
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I heard both tones through the studio monitors. My tone in via XLR and his tone mic'ed from a cab in an isolation box.

Jens said:
Figuring out how you sound and how you want to sound is more an ongoing process than a goal for most people, both are changing
all the time.

Maybe that is something to try and figure out, what's the difference? What needs to change?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I just thought I was at pro recording level. My tone would continue to change over time, but I thought my tone now was good to go for the song. I think overall my tone needed to be more even and feel more present and in your face.

Sammetal91 said:
You should've asked him what was it in your tone from the axe fx that he didn't like or that you felt lacking. Unless he gives the "feel" bs that a lot of tube guys use, he'll probably give you specifics. Most studio guys like to use their own equipment besides the fact that he knows how to use it to make sure that Murphy's law doesn't come into play with outside equipment. Also, not everyone has good gear. It keeps the engineer in a safe spot if the band comes in and gets pissed because their crap performance along with crap gear doesn't sound like gold. Not saying you suck but every engineer has to deal with a good portion of "those bands".
Click to expand...

Totally on point. I should have asked, but time was money and we were already far along. I'm sure he was also trying to reduce risk and work with something he knows and not have the difficult guitarist go "hey I think I need to tweak my tone some more".

DonPetersen said:
Sounds like the recording engineer was also the producer and mixing engineer, and these guys have a bit of an ego.
Someone working as a pro in this field must be pretty dull to not see the many many advantages the Axe has to offer - even if you run it through a poweramp and mic a cab. It's part of their job to know the tools, have the tools and being able to handle them.
Click to expand...

I don't think the engineer was looking down on the Axe Fx specifically (maybe just a little for it being digital box when tube amps were readily available) but more at the tone not being up to par.

Thanks for the input guys! It's a learning experience! I'll be heading into studio soon so I'll bring my Axe Fx again and ask more questions and try to dial it in better.
 
Try letting him have a whack at it :) not physically of course but he might feel better if he can see what it does
 
IMO, there are vast differences in FRFR speakers. Tones that I've tweaked for a particular cab to sound fabulous, when I ran DI in some FOH systems sounded horrible - razor edge highs that could not be EQ'd out with the AxeFX global EQ. I have also recorded DI, I work part time engineering in a studio. I've found it pretty easy to get great recorded tones, but in this case I tweak the amp from scratch and try a few different cab IR's. FWIW, I've never been a fan of the stock V30 cab sim.

In general, I think that a common mistake especially when playing at low volume is to use too much gain. A good rule of thumb is to turn the gain up until it feels like just barely enough, then turn it down a bit more. This is true when recording with real amps too, the "big" guitar sounds usually don't have a great deal of gain.

If you have the opportunity, take your Axe into the control room and tweak your patches there, while playing with the rhythm tracks. Louder isn't always better, but it makes a good bit of difference in recreating a live amp feel. Patches that I've made felt which felt "blah" have become awesome when I crank up the volume.
 
hayashi said:
Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I just thought I was at pro recording level. My tone would continue to change over time, but I thought my tone now was good to go for the song. I think overall my tone needed to be more even and feel more present and in your face.
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Hm. It might be different for cleaner sounds but I've noticed that when I am recorded the engineer often sends my signal through a compressor (with an amp but also with the axe). You could probably argue that I should add that myself in my patches, but since I don't use that live I don't want to, and if he does that with the amp and the axe then that seems ok too.

Jens
 
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