Tone Matching a PA

bread

Power User
Is it possible to tone match a cranked PA to simulate what a patch would sound like at gig levels?

I guess this has been discussed before but I would be very interested if the Fletcher Munson characteristics could be simulated so that a patch can be EQ'd at bedroom levels ready for live performance.

Then simply delete the tone match block when done.
 
Fletcher Munson has to do with how your ears perceive sound at different volume levels, not how gear works at different volume levels. All you'd really be doing is capturing an IR of that particular PA's speaker, which if you were still running through it at lower volumes, would cause any frequency exaggerations/deficiencies to be essentially doubled.
 
since we hear frequencies differently at various levels, a type of dynamic EQ would be cool. You could experiment with the multi-band compressor near the end of the signal chain to get close to the curve as you turn up
Fletcher-Munson.gif
 

Attachments

  • Fletcher-Munson.gif
    Fletcher-Munson.gif
    28.1 KB · Views: 4
Last edited:
Looks like it might be more difficult than I thought.

I was hoping that a preset played through a loud pa could be simulated by adding some sort of dynamic eq/compressor/filter.
 
simplest thing to do is use your global graphic and set the EQ curve for a live setting that works for you. I typically just pull down 2k & 4k, that seems to smooth things out nicely
 
simplest thing to do is use your global graphic and set the EQ curve for a live setting that works for you. I typically just pull down 2k & 4k, that seems to smooth things out nicely

That's very interesting. How much of 2k and 4k do you typically pull down please ?
 
you're probably not going to like my answer... til it sounds good. I'd estimate about 2.5-4dB depending on the loudness I'm playing at and the PA being used
 
When going from a low listening level to a higher listening level, you want to BOOST midrange, not cut it. Our hearing is more sensitive to midrange frequencies, so at lower volumes, the mids will sound relatively louder. That will cause you to scoop your mids or boost the lows and highs more when dialing in at low volumes. When you then take that preset and crank it up loud, the bass and treble become even more prominent and it ends up boomy, harsh, and lacking in midrange.

Use the ISO 226:2003 Equal Loudness Contour graph as your reference:

equal-loudness-contours-iso-226-2003.png


These curves can be a bit misleading though. They represent the difference in perceived volume based on frequency. A Phon is a unit of perceived loudness. It's basically like a dB but is offset to compensate for our hearing patterns. At 1 kHz, 1 Phon = 1 dB. Each curve shows how loud in dB each frequency has to be in order to be perceived at an equal loudness relative to the other frequencies. So for example, at an output level of 70 dBA, 1 kHz will have a perceived loudness of 70 Phon, but down at 100 Hz, it will only be perceived at about 45 Phon, a difference of roughly 25 dB or a bit over 4 times quieter. When comparing different listening levels, you have to compare the curves for the two different levels and look at the difference in shape between the two, not just their vertical position on the graph. You'll notice that there is little difference in the curve shapes in the midrange frequencies. The biggest differences are in the low and high frequency ranges as you move from low to high listening volumes.

Take the curve of the desired listening level and subtract the curve for the level at which you created the preset. That will give you the difference between the two curves at each frequency. If you then offset that curve by the total change in listening volume, you'll be left with the needed EQ compensation curve.

An easy way to visualize this is to superimpose the curves together to highlight their differences. Say we want to use a preset that was created at bedroom volume of about 60 dB for gigging at a loud level of 100 dB. With a little Photoshop magic we can move the 60 dB curve up 40 dB on the graph to compare their shapes.

equal-loudness-contours-iso-226-2003b.png

You can see that the red 60 Phons curve is much higher in the low and high frequency range and is very similar in the midrange. What that tells you is in order to keep your preset sounding the same, you'll need to EQ to compensate that difference. Where the red original curve is above the new desired curve, you'll have to cut with EQ. Where it's below, you'll have to boost with EQ.

So based on these curves, taking a preset created at 60 dB and using it at 100 dB would require approximately the following global EQ to keep it sounding roughly the same.

31 Hz = -18 dB (-12 is max)
63 Hz = -15 dB (-12 is max)
125 Hz = -10 dB
250 Hz = -7 dB
500 Hz = -2 dB
1 kHz = 0 dB
2 kHz = +1 dB
4 kHz = +1 dB
8 kHz = 0 dB
16 kHz = -7 dB

The resulting EQ curve is a frown curve or a relative midrange boost. Of course this assumes that your sound system is totally linear throughout its whole output volume range. This is often not the case, so you still have to use your ears to fine tune the final EQ needed. The curves are also based on pure sine waves, so the effect with full program music is a bit different from person to person and with different material. Harmonically rich sounds like distorted guitars do all kind of weird things with our ears. It's often much more complicated than simple EQ curves, so your best bet is to always dial in your gig presets at gig volume.
 
Last edited:
I have an old Yamaha A-15 stereo amplifier that had an interesting setup with the "loudness" function. It's not a button but a dial that both increased the bass and treble and reduced the volume as you turned it up. The manual suggested that you set the bass and treble to your taste at a loud volume level with the loudness at "0", then use the loudness dial to reduce the volume for quieter listening. The idea being that you'd really not touch the volume knob much after that.

Yamaha%20A-15.jpg


BTW: This is a wickedly good amplifier from about 1980.
 
If I may add something to this PA tonematching idea . . . And sorry if my point has been answered before, but I've made all my patches running my Axe-Fx 2 XL directly into an active Matrix Q12 . . . Great sounds (perfect to my ears and needs), but of course when using the same presets thru my QSC K-SUB + 2 K10s, the sounds are "different" . . . not to say absolutely not to my taste anymore . . .

Of course I could create Matrix Presets and PA presets, but I was looking for a way using the global EQ of my Output 2 (PA . . . Output 1 is used for my Matrix cab), trying to simulate the sound of my Matrix on the PA . . . If for some presets/sounds, my global EQ settings make the sound reasonably close to my Matrix sounds, for some other presets the same global EQ setting doesn't get close at all . . .

Therefore I thought that the idea of ToneMatching (my Matrix ?) in order to be able to get exactly the same sounds out of my PA was quite interesting . . . but never having used ToneMatch, not even really understanding what IRs are etc., do you guys think that my idea might be possible ? Get a single global ToneMatch (block or setting) of my Matrix "sounds" that would make all my presets (Clean, crunch, hi-gain etc.) sound as close as possible thru my PA, as on my Matrix ?

Cheers,

Taco
 
It's already been said, the FM phenomenon is a function of the ears and brain. Your gear (assuming it's got the headroom and linear response) is going to be putting out the same signal, just different decibels. Theoretically, tone-matching a rig of this sort will render you a virtually linear curve, since both the output and the input are the same frequency responses, just different levels of loudness. There's very little reason to 'compensate' for FM, do you change your EQ settings in the car when you turn the radio up or down?

Tweak your gig patches at gig level (and context) and make sure you're happy with them. Then bring them home and listen at bearable levels and try to acclimate to the sound. It'll likely sound wimpier than you'd like but at least you'll know what works.
 
I have an old Yamaha A-15 stereo amplifier that had an interesting setup with the "loudness" function. It's not a button but a dial that both increased the bass and treble and reduced the volume as you turned it up. The manual suggested that you set the bass and treble to your taste at a loud volume level with the loudness at "0", then use the loudness dial to reduce the volume for quieter listening. The idea being that you'd really not touch the volume knob much after that.

Yamaha%20A-15.jpg

That would be a KILLER addition to add to the Fractal products, a LOUDNESS!!! Seriously if Fractal set their minds for figuring out what is the interaction between different levels of dB coming out of the speakers it will help many users. For example the instructions could be to set up a dB meter (phone app) at 10 feet from the speakers and measure how loud it is then you can set the LOUDNESS to a particular setting... just a thought.
 
Back
Top Bottom