To verb or not to verb

W

Wildwind

Experienced
Possible dumb question here, not finding answers elsewhere.

My Axe-FX was left at the gig (have it back now) and I had the urge to play, so I dug out my backup pedalboard - Ethos, Timmy, Ecstasy, etc. I had a real hard time stopping.

What really got me was that the sound seemed to be more front and center (running a Mackie DLM8 in this case) - and the main signal chain difference between the Axe and the Ethos setup is no reverb, which I use on every Axe patch. Now I know reverb can "move" the sound further back, so to speak, but I'm not running it that hard. Delay doesn't seem to do that (the backup does have digital delay).

So I'm wondering for those of you running FRFR (we run silent stage, so no ambient guitar sound at all) - are you running reverb? Should we be running reverb? I mean unless we're going for "that" sound, which I'm not. My band is fairly large with lots of midrangey things (vocals, three keyboards, second guitar).

I just wanted to start a discussion and get some thoughts. I'm about the set up the Axe next to the Ethos board and will A/B them extensively, so I may have contributions of my own. I think I'm pretty much over the "amp in the room" sound, not sure it's serving a real purpose. Fighting words? I don't know, straighten me out.
 
I use reverb on everything, but for live use, I try to keep it less than studio version of tone I'm copping because some rooms are more reflective than others.
 
So I'm wondering for those of you running FRFR (we run silent stage, so no ambient guitar sound at all) - are you running reverb?
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I tend to reserve reverb as an selective effect meant to add space and, like you said, push me back in the mix. So I don't run it all the time and my REV blocks in my patches are all IA-toggled and never engaged by default. The way I dial in my reverb (think Wicked Game type of space) I couldn't run it all the time. It's too big a reverb, meant for only limited use. I'd be lost in the mix if it was on all the time. When I do run it, the keyboard player is usually not playing.

After watching Scott P.'s "how I build a preset" presentation this weekend I'm going to try an always-on REV block this week in addition to my usually special effect REV block. He dials up his REV block to be very out of the way. I'm failing to recall his exact words, but it was something to the effect of it just puts a small bit of space around the sound so it feels little more around you. Hard to recall now sorry -- there was a lot of information absorbed. But I digress...I liked when I heard when he was done dialling it up so immagonna try it out tonight, take it to rehearsal Wednesday and maybe gig it on Thursday night.

I think Scott's got a how-to video in the works for reverb like he did for delay but the gist of what he did was Medium Room, a very low mix, tries to remove all the splash on the tails by rolling off the highs in the EQ section. He also rolled off lows. There was something else he did...but I'm drawing a blank on it now, sorry. Maybe someone wrote it down. Once the new Axe-Edit drops you'll be able to load individual effects again from disk and there'll be a bunch of beta team member effects in there -- hopefully Scott's always-on reverb is in the bunch.
 
Hanging with Scott is one reason I started using reverb again when I got the Axe-FX. Not his fault, though...I just think maybe in my case, I'm better off without it. With my older HD500 setup, I never used the reverb - but there were other reasons for that. With the Axe-FX, everything just sounds so good...you know?

The room comment - that's my thinking too. I almost always play in the same place, a church sanctuary that wasn't meant to be the sanctuary long-term. Block walls, inset stained glass windows that run floor-to-ceiling, 2 to 2.5 stories tall, massive wood beams, wood ceiling (but at least it's not flat), balcony with hard facing of wood and then glass, very rectangular - your basic nightmare. We have a great sound system, but that doesn't fix reflections, and we aren't able to address those on an adequate scale. My sound guys are good but don't necessarily know great guitar tone - that's up to me.

I'll revisit Scott's demo again. As usual, it was amazingly well done and I know he's making more.
 
I just started messing around and turned reverb off on my main patches - but I'm not really hearing that much difference at home, not like I do with the Ethos setup. But I'll keep experimenting.
 
After watching Scott's video on setting up reverb, I am really close to adding it back into my chain after about 5+ years of no reverb... For the same reason - it pushed my sound back too far in the mix.

I was able to dial in a nice subtle reverb that adds just a bit of extra dimension.
 
unix-guy said:
After watching Scott's video on setting up reverb, I am really close to adding it back into my chain after about 5+ years of no reverb... For the same reason - it pushed my sound back too far in the mix.

I was able to dial in a nice subtle reverb that adds just a bit of extra dimension.
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I prefer Delay's as they are more controllable and more expressive, however sometimes reverb is required to create atmosphere for the music. The most important thing and what a lot of guys do wrong IMO, is dial in a verb that sounds amazing on it's own, but then it either muddies or gets lost in the mix, then you have FOH adding a plate which compounds it.

One of the things I learned when learning about post production and mixing is that many times a reverb that works in a mix sounds like crap on it's own haha, but yeah there is a lot to making it work, and it's not just you, it's your band as well. What I've found works best for me being in a 2 guitar cover act playing classic metal and hard rock is usually dry on anything dirty rhythm, reverb on anything clean rhythm, and delays for solo's. I've instructed our sound guy to never mix me with the FOH effects. We just play local small bars 50-200 people.

Ever since experiencing ducking delay, I just can't use anything else with the satisfaction and depth that delay provides.
 
Severed said:
I prefer Delay's as they are more controllable and more expressive, however sometimes reverb is required to create atmosphere for the music. The most important thing and what a lot of guys do wrong IMO, is dial in a verb that sounds amazing on it's own, but then it either muddies or gets lost in the mix, then you have FOH adding a plate which compounds it.

One of the things I learned when learning about post production and mixing is that many times a reverb that works in a mix sounds like crap on it's own haha, but yeah there is a lot to making it work, and it's not just you, it's your band as well. What I've found works best for me being in a 2 guitar cover act playing classic metal and hard rock is usually dry on anything dirty rhythm, reverb on anything clean rhythm, and delays for solo's. I've instructed our sound guy to never mix me with the FOH effects. We just play local small bars 50-200 people.

Ever since experiencing ducking delay, I just can't use anything else with the satisfaction and depth that delay provides.
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Yeah, I'm usually just running a delay with a low mix level (about 11% on Axe fx) with feedback set for 1-2 repeats, delay time 340-360ms. I run that on pretty much everything.
 
As mentioned, you may want to back off on how much reverb you're using when playing live.
But it's really about the song and where you want instruments to sit in the mix from a front to back perspective.
This mix can be different song to song, or maintain the same space across a given project of songs.
 
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Try using the new "Studio" type reverb and turn room reflections off. It will sit more in the back of your sound, giving it space while letting your tone remain in the foreground.

Cutting out the high frequencies—starting at, say, 2000Hz—can help with this as well.
 
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I prefer not to use reverb live. So many sound guys make bands sound muddy even without reverb - adding verb can make this even worse.
 
I have found that I like a touch of the small room verb. It's very subtle, gives a touch of space, but does not allow your tone to get lost at all. I always run verb in parallel, mix 100%, input around 10% (for the small room). I'm not a fan of a totally dry tone, so this gives all I need and actually sounds more 'amp in the room-like' to me..... oh.. did I just say that??
 
Wildwind said:
... I almost always play in the same place, a church sanctuary that wasn't meant to be the sanctuary long-term. Block walls, inset stained glass windows that run floor-to-ceiling, 2 to 2.5 stories tall, massive wood beams, wood ceiling (but at least it's not flat), balcony with hard facing of wood and then glass, very rectangular - your basic nightmare. We have a great sound system, but that doesn't fix reflections, and we aren't able to address those on an adequate scale. My sound guys are good but don't necessarily know great guitar tone - that's up to me. ...
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Sounds like you have all the reverb you need (or can handle) just from the room you are playing in. No?
 
iaresee said:
I tend to reserve reverb as an selective effect meant to add space and, like you said, push me back in the mix. So I don't run it all the time and my REV blocks in my patches are all IA-toggled and never engaged by default. The way I dial in my reverb (think Wicked Game type of space) I couldn't run it all the time. It's too big a reverb, meant for only limited use. I'd be lost in the mix if it was on all the time. ...
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I am trying to visualize what this would look like in Axe Edit.

Can you also have expression peddles control reverb and delay parameters in addition to IA cut switches?

If so how do you add expression peddles to control the reverb and delay blocks?

Can you have more than one expression peddle control a delay block for -say - feedback and mix/level?
 
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smcrosby, that's what I'm thinking. I have a wireless I can dig out, might try it different ways. But right now, what I'm hearing at home (also not a great acoustic environment) sounds real good without reverb and a touch of digital delay (I like analog, but prefer the clean vibe of digital in a mix).

Thanks everyone for your contributions. I can see this both ways and no doubt will be experimenting for a long time. As usual.
 
I use it on recording, jamming in a small room, etc. but have pretty much turned it off for live use...

I have found it muddies the mix and getting it just "right" depends on the room and is a PITA to nail. And..most rooms have enough "room" to add their own reverb. YMMV.
 
smcrosby said:
I am trying to visualize what this would look like in Axe Edit.
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Would a patch help? See: Axe-Change - Download Preset - Trey A - by iaresee -- there's a REV in there that comes on when you switch to a scene or you can bring it in/out with an IA on your controller.

Can you also have expression peddles control reverb and delay parameters in addition to IA cut switches?
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Sure. Expression pedals can be attached to anything: volume, reverb level, delay feedback -- sky's the limit really. Though, I don't have expression pedals controlling any delay or reverb parameters in my patches. Just IAs to bypass/unbypass the blocks.

If so how do you add expression peddles to control the reverb and delay blocks?
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See: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/news/72486-axe-fest-ii-18.html#post929309 -- that's an example of using expression pedals on reverb and delay parameters.

Can you have more than one expression peddle control a delay block for -say - feedback and mix/level?
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See link above.

But about my comment you quoted: I don't use expression pedals, I use IAs here. The REV block is bypassed and I only turn it on as an effect when I'm a lone guitar or something, so I'm not fighting with keys and what not. If there's lots of keys and other things happening, I'll use a light delay instead.
 
From the original description, I would A/B your analog rig with the Axe rig to get the basic "up front" sound matched first then dig into the verb settings. The original description sounds more like level differences or compression vs. the effect of a small amount of verb.

I play with tons of reverb all the time. It's not subtle for me. I just love the way it sounds.

I find if you extend the tail delay (150ms is my starting point) and kill early level (-40db), i.e. the early reflections, the reverb stops fighting the room you are playing in and you can use loads of it.
 
Very good advice on the reverb settings. I am making notes of all these things on a file I started when I got mine last year. I need to edit it due to all the FW upgrades. Not complaining.

When I did the A/B, I found it wasn't the reverb that was giving that impression of not being "up front." Still, I left the reverb off the Axe version and it remains off at the moment. Where that impression is coming from, I do not know sure (more in a minute on this). However, I am very pleased that I have matched tones effectively where I actually like the Axe version a little better while keeping all the desirable traits that got me started.

Now that I'm pretty much done with that (I'm too analytical to ever be 'done'), I am going to explore the effects of reverb.

Okay, as for compression - I started tweaking with the Comp block off. The Ethos board includes a CMAT Mods Deluxe Signa Comp, the last in a very long line of Keeley-modded and boutique compressors. When I turned the Comp block on (it was set on Pedal 2), it really got my attention. It stays on for sure. So I think you're right - the compressor factors into this and brought the tone very "up front."

Some great thoughts have come from this thread, far exceeding my simple expectations.
 
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