Tips for using Mesa sims

J

james...

Experienced
When I use sims like the USA Lead and Recto amps I get the feeling that I'm playing a really great amp. However, it's easy to tell that these sims are really hard to dial in. (like all mesa's)

For those of you who frequently use these amps, what are some common rules of thumb to go by? Tips? Tricks? Rules?
 
As far as the USA Lead sims (Mesa Mark series) go, I tend to approach them like the real things. Here's my list of tips:


- Keep the amp sim's Bass low. Anywhere from 0-4 is typical with Mesa users, with 2 seeming to be the most common. I have the Bass around 2.00 on my patches. Mid anywhere from 5.00 to 8.00, and Treble fairly high (from 6.50 to 8.50). I personally have the Treble on my patches between 6.50 - 7.50, depending on the USA Lead sim. This is how the Mesa Mark series amps are typically set up. I also have the Presence at 2.52 (between 2-3 seems typical on real world settings). I have the Tonestack Type set to Passive and the Presence Type set to Active.

- Keep the power amp Master relatively low so most of the gain is coming from the preamp stage of the amp sim. Mesas are about preamp distortion, not power amp distortion. Typical settings I've seen on the Mark series are between 3-4 (I set the Master at 3.23).

- Mesas are set with a very cold, fixed bias. I've researched this a lot and the consensus seems to be that it is 200-205, so you might experiment with turning the amp sim's Pwr Tube Bias parameter down (I have mine at 0.205).

- This isn't specific to just the Mesas, but to the high gain amp sims in general: Try turning up the Transformer Match parameter. I read where someone on another forum described it as the "Mojo" control, and that's pretty accurate. I can't describe too well what it does to the tone, it just makes it sound better. More lively and 3-D sounding. I set it at 6.38 on the USA Lead 1, and 6.85 on all the other Mesa Mark sims.

- Use the Parametric EQ after the amp sim to simulate the Mesa Mark's on-board graphic eq and the Mesa "Classic V" eq curve:



MesaEQ2avatarxxx2.jpg




The supposed real frequencies and Q's can be found on the Axe FX Wiki, but I never liked how they sounded. I just use the actual frequencies as they appear on the front of the Mesa amps (like in the above pic) with the Parametric's default Q's (with a couple of exceptions) and it sounds pretty close to me (I can give you the exact settings I use if you want).

- I always use a Drive block before the amp sim (all high gain amp sims, not just the USA Leads) to tighten up the bass and give the tone more punch (Drive at 0.00, Level 10.00). I like to use the Full OD, with the Clip Type changed to HV Tube.



Here's a crude clip of the tone I'm getting with the USA Lead 1 amp sim (Mark IV). it's just the audio extracted from a video shot with a digital camera. Not the best sound quality and it sounds way better in person (it sounds a little brighter than it actually is in the clip), but it gives a decent idea of what the tone is like in the room. I'm running the Axe FX through 2 Dynaudio BM5A active studio monitors. I recorded this at low, conversation volume. Ignore the aimless crap playing: :roll:



(Right click and save as)

http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=20921
 
Great post, shredi! I will try all of your tips, as I do not own a Mesa amp myself and therefore do not have this real life experience. And I have some trouble getting REAL good tones using the Mesa-based models on the Axe-Fx. But I dial in tones differently than you are suggesting by using more of a Marshall-approach, which probably is the wrong thing to do.... I will report back if I had any success.
 
Great tips Shredi! If you could complete an otherwise awesome post with the info about the parametric eq (with freqs, Qs and gains and all) and the cabs you are using it would be just the...

BTW, I have tried the settings you have posted and they're awesome, the only thing I'm not completely happy is that I get a lot of fizz with so much highs, treble and upper freqs? At high volumes thru my FRFR system it's quite noticeable.
 
too_much_power said:
Great tips Shredi! If you could complete an otherwise awesome post with the info about the parametric eq (with freqs, Qs and gains and all) and the cabs you are using it would be just the...

BTW, I have tried the settings you have posted and they're awesome, the only thing I'm not completely happy is that I get a lot of fizz with so much highs, treble and upper freqs? At high volumes thru my FRFR system it's quite noticeable.
Click to expand...
I feel the exact same way.

I was previously using the VH4 for my high gain stuff. After I dialed in the USA lead 1 with your settings, it eclipsed the VH4. Just more powerful, more clear, more everything.

Couple of things though...

-Like TMP, I had a little too much fizzyness in my tone. Any way to counteract that?

-I have the gain on like 3.76 and it's still too much for me. Any problem with bringing it down to say 2? Would this be detremental to the tone?
 
SUP? :mrgreen:

That's great stuff right there,,I'll have to give it a try later.
Thanks man.

MOSHON
DAVE
 
WOW, this really helps - thx!
Can you post your EQ settings? I also have the feeling it sounds a bit to fizzy when I use the "Classic V" PEQ
 
Wow thanks guys, I really wasn't expecting my post to get much attention, especially on a Sunday (sorry it's taken me awhile to post again, shredi sleeps in). Strange no one has commented on my clip though, hmmmm................




Here's the settings I use for the Parametric EQ on my Mark IV patch. It goes directly after the Amp block:



Parametric EQ:

F1
Freq. 80.8 Hz
Q. 0.812
Gain. 8.79 dB
Type. Shelving

F2
Freq. 238.8 Hz
Q. 0.707
Gain. (minus) -0.47 dB

F3
Freq. 748.2 Hz
Q. 0.718
Gain. (minus) -7.46 dB

F4
Freq. 2181 Hz
Q. 0.707
Gain. 2.36 dB


(I don't actually use this next freq, but included it because I'm an anal completest.)

F5
Freq. 6618 Hz
Q. 0.707
Gain. 0.00 dB
Type. Shelving


Here's a pic of what the eq curve should look like (told you I was an anal completest. :mrgreen:)






One very important thing is to use the Amp blocks Depth control. I use this instead of boosting the 238.8 Hz frequency in the Parametric EQ. Experiment with turning it up until you get the desired amount of "Thump". On my Mark IV patch the Depth is at 6.69, and is set to Active on the advanced amp page.




I'll get back on here a little later and try to answer some of the questions about it being fizzy, the cab sim, etc.... (shredi is hungry and needs to eat :lol: ).
 
james... said:
-Like TMP, I had a little too much fizzyness in my tone. Any way to counteract that?
Click to expand...
In the Amp block, try lowering the Hi Cut parameter to somewhere between 4 kHz and 8 kHz. Dial to taste.

-I have the gain on like 3.76 and it's still too much for me. Any problem with bringing it down to say 2? Would this be detremental to the tone?
Click to expand...
Try it and see! :cool:
 
This thread is awesome!

I generally shoot for a Triaxis/2:90 style sound; akin to the Mark IV but with a little more umph in the low end for my seven strings. Here's something I can add from my own experimentation:

Cliff posted cool trick to tighten up the low end on high gain patches:
1. Put a filter block before the amp block. Set the type to Highpass.
2. Attach the Envelope controller to the Frequency parameter. Use default settings for the Envelope parameters.
3. Set the Scale to 40%, Offset to around 22%.

Using this with a boost to the transformer match parameter seems work like the 2:90's "deep" mode.


HailHalford - hope you don't mind, but I added this to the Wiki page as well.
 
too_much_power said:
Great tips Shredi! If you could complete an otherwise awesome post with the info about....the cabs you are using it would be just the...

BTW, I have tried the settings you have posted and they're awesome, the only thing I'm not completely happy is that I get a lot of fizz with so much highs, treble and upper freqs? At high volumes thru my FRFR system it's quite noticeable.
Click to expand...


The cab I use is the Axe FX’s old stock 4x12 V30 (Framus) cab sim that was removed by Cliff after some controversy, as a user cab. I tried attaching it to this post, but it’s saying the board attachment quota has been reached. I’ll upload to a file hosting site and add it to this post after that.


EDIT - Ok, here's the cab IR (it should load into cab slot #1 unless you change the code accordingly - see the Wiki):



http://www.yousendit.com/download/TzY1e ... V3hMWEE9PQ


EDIT - I forgot to mention that I'm running the Cab in Mono Hires, with the 57 Dyn Mic sim (everything else at default - no Drive, Air, etc....)




People always comment that my patches are too bright. I do like a bright tone and it’s a fairly bright patch for sure, but it doesn’t sound fizzy on my monitors. I am playing at a pretty low volume though (like typical TV volume). If I turn it up even just a little bit, it becomes too bright for me as well. Also, my pickups are pretty dark sounding (Dimarzio Tone Zone & Air Norton), with a lot of lower mids. I am always fighting them (especially the Tone Zone) to be clear and not sound muddy. Because of that, I usually cut around the 250Hz a little and boost the highs some on my patches. You might try doing the opposite (I would try turning down the Presence first).



james... said:
-I have the gain on like 3.76 and it's still too much for me. Any problem with bringing it down to say 2? Would this be detremental to the tone?
Click to expand...


Really? Well, that would be detrimental to my my tone. That amount of gain would be a semi-heavy crunch tone at best for me. Definitely not enough for leads or heavy rhythms (and to boot, I have high output pickups, plus on-board active electronics that boost them even more). On my Mark IV patch, I have the gain at 6.81. Now I’m the first to admit, that like Petrucci, I play with too much gain (not to mention too much delay). I don’t think it’s just that though. Marco Sfogli’s “Andromeda” patch (which is similar to the tone I go for) has even more gain dialed in that my Mark IV patch. Are you sure you have the Drive block’s Drive control all the way down to 0?



miki777 said:
mortega76 said:
How about a patch Shredi? :D
Click to expand...

+1 :D
Click to expand...


I’ll probably post the patch in a couple of days. I’ve been talking to another forumer via PM who also wants it and was planning on sending him. I was waiting for the new firmware to come out because it’s a bit of a pain to remove the Axe FX from my rack case and hook it up to my computer that’s on the other side of the house and usually only do that when there is a new release to download. But since it seems like it still might be awhile before Cliff has it ready, I’ll probably just go ahead and upload it before too long.
 
shredi knight said:
[quote="james...":1uhzzr2w]
-I have the gain on like 3.76 and it's still too much for me. Any problem with bringing it down to say 2? Would this be detremental to the tone?
Click to expand...


Really? Well, that would be detrimental to my my tone. That amount of gain would be a semi-heavy crunch tone at best for me. Definitely not enough for leads or heavy rhythms (and too boot, I have high output pickups, plus on-board active electronics that boost them even more). On my Mark IV patch, I have the gain at 6.81. Now I’m the first to admit, that like Petrucci, I play with too much gain (not to mention too much delay). I don’t think it’s just that though. Marco Sfogli’s “Andromeda” patch (which is similar to the tone I go for) has even more gain dialed in that my Mark IV patch. Are you sure you have the Drive block’s Drive control all the way down to 0?
[/quote:1uhzzr2w]

Now THIS is interesting.

I have the gain on 3.5 and it's SATURATED. I'm talking soaked. Harmonics are effortless. It's truly getting into Dream Theater territory. The drive is at 0 yes. I'm using EMG's but they aren't that hot to be honest. Definitely not hotter than your stuff.

I'm truly perplexed as to how this could be. I will go back and triple check my patch. Maybe there's something I missed. But as it stands I am playing with all your settings and my gain is at 3.5... But I promise you I am getting some really high gain. Sounds like Lamb of God saturation
 
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