Thoughts on 2 x VP4’s, 1 for in front, 1 for FX loop of an amp?

scarbodave said:
One thing that I have not seemed demonstrated is a quick way to edit parameters of these effects in the VP4. If all of your effects are set and forget then you're good, but if there are effects that you want to quickly tweak on the fly then I think you're probably going to have to use an expression pedal (or knob) using modifiers. Not the end of the world, but if there are effects that you like to tweak live then perhaps it makes sense having those as traditional pedals and the others which you typically set and forget implemented in the VP4. So, while having two VP4s may cover you for the number of pedals you need there may be advantages to having a mix of "real" pedals and a single VP4.
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I had a feature request for a live performance capability when you're in the effects mode where the four knobs could be dedicated to parameter tweak similar to the performance screens on the other Fractal products. I would use this for controlling gain/level/mix depending on the preset. It was too late at the time but maybe it could be revisited.
 
Remember that with two VP4s you are also managing two devices. While you could probably run MIDI between the two and use one as the "master" device to do the switching, you are still adding a lot of complication in your life when you have to have two sets of presets etc.

Might as well buy a FM3 or FM9 instead. I had zero issues using the FM3 in 4CM, it was not noisy so I don't see why the FM9 would be any different.
 
unix-guy said:
Have you compared it to FM9 or Axe Fx III using the same amps?

There are a handful of people making claims like this and I can't really figure out why the FM3 would be different.

From what I understand, some amps are just not friendly in a 4CM setup.
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Yes, I own an FM9 and an Axe III, and I compared the FM3 side by side with both of them with the same created patches on equal firmware, with the same amplifiers. There is a noise floor when using 4CM with the FM3 that some people can tolerate, but it's exacerbated with high gain amps, or high gain channels on amps. For example, one of the amplifiers I tested was a Friedman Runt 50. The clean channel in 4CM was incredible. Going to the gain channel was unusable. Doing the same scenario with my FM9 and Axe III, the noise floor was essentially gone. I'm not talking death-metal high gain, I'm saying "jumped Marshall" type gain as a foundation, and adding in delay/reverb in the FX loop. Nothing crazy.

There is a good thread on here somewhere in which that I've posted, where others have had the same issues. Cliff has essentially said that the 4CM is not ideal with the FM3, and that the "architecture" or design of the FM9 and Axe III is better for 4CM as they are both based on the same hardware / signal path technology or whatever you want to call it, that was in the FX8. I'm not saying this correctly, but Cliff has eluded to this, and understandably, there's only so much you can have in the FM3 and keep the price point and size of the unit where it is. I'm not complaining about it, it is what it is. I bought the FM9 when Cliff eluded to the basis for design of the signal path as being that which was in the FX8, and would be better for 4CM. I'm satisfied with how the FM9 works in 4CM, I was just hoping for something a little smaller and more affordable to accomplish this.
 
laxu said:
Remember that with two VP4s you are also managing two devices. While you could probably run MIDI between the two and use one as the "master" device to do the switching, you are still adding a lot of complication in your life when you have to have two sets of presets etc.

Might as well buy a FM3 or FM9 instead. I had zero issues using the FM3 in 4CM, it was not noisy so I don't see why the FM9 would be any different.
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I understand that. If I did it, I would treat it as just a standard pedalboard, and wouldn't be concerned with running it as "scenes", per se.
 
Why don't you just stick with the FM9? That probably takes up less room than two VP4s and does everything you're wanting the VP4s to do and more.

We all love a new piece of gear, but if you're thinking you need two of them to get what you want out of it, then that suggests it probably isn't the right unit for you.
 
unix-guy said:
Have you compared it to FM9 or Axe Fx III using the same amps?

There are a handful of people making claims like this and I can't really figure out why the FM3 would be different.

From what I understand, some amps are just not friendly in a 4CM setup.
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I tried the FM3 in 4CM with three different amps and had no problems with noise. The important part was a Humbuster cable from the Output 2. Without Humbuster cable the noise was terrible.

That's the reason why I asked in a different thread, if the VP4 has Humbuster outputs. But Matt answered that it's not necessary. Something must be different here.
 
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painkiller said:
I tried the FM3 in 4CM with three different amps and had no problems with noise. The important part was a Humbuster cable from the Output 2. Without Humbuster cable the noise was terrible.

That's the reason why I asked in a different thread, if the VP4 has Humbuster outputs. But Matt answered that it's not necessary. Something must be different here.
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I'm very curious for them to eventually reveal the reason why Humbuster is not necessary with the VP4.
 
painkiller said:
I tried the FM3 in 4CM with three different amps and had no problems with noise. The important part was a Humbuster cable from the Output 2. Without Humbuster cable the noise was terrible.

That's the reason why I asked in a different thread, if the VP4 has Humbuster outputs. But Matt answered that it's not necessary. Something must be different here.
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Humbuster is not necessary because it's DC powered and the chassis is floating.

Hum occurs due to ground loops. If equipment is AC powered the chassis must be grounded by law. This introduces ground loops when using unbalanced connections.

The correct solution is for everything to be balanced but the industry seems reluctant to embrace that.
 
FractalAudio said:
Humbuster is not necessary because it's DC powered and the chassis is floating.

Hum occurs due to ground loops. If equipment is AC powered the chassis must be grounded by law. This introduces ground loops when using unbalanced connections.

The correct solution is for everything to be balanced but the industry seems reluctant to embrace that.
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Cool. That makes complete sense. Thank you for explaining.
 
SinglecutGuy said:
Yes, I own an FM9 and an Axe III, and I compared the FM3 side by side with both of them with the same created patches on equal firmware, with the same amplifiers. There is a noise floor when using 4CM with the FM3 that some people can tolerate, but it's exacerbated with high gain amps, or high gain channels on amps. For example, one of the amplifiers I tested was a Friedman Runt 50. The clean channel in 4CM was incredible. Going to the gain channel was unusable. Doing the same scenario with my FM9 and Axe III, the noise floor was essentially gone. I'm not talking death-metal high gain, I'm saying "jumped Marshall" type gain as a foundation, and adding in delay/reverb in the FX loop. Nothing crazy.

There is a good thread on here somewhere in which that I've posted, where others have had the same issues. Cliff has essentially said that the 4CM is not ideal with the FM3, and that the "architecture" or design of the FM9 and Axe III is better for 4CM as they are both based on the same hardware / signal path technology or whatever you want to call it, that was in the FX8. I'm not saying this correctly, but Cliff has eluded to this, and understandably, there's only so much you can have in the FM3 and keep the price point and size of the unit where it is. I'm not complaining about it, it is what it is. I bought the FM9 when Cliff eluded to the basis for design of the signal path as being that which was in the FX8, and would be better for 4CM. I'm satisfied with how the FM9 works in 4CM, I was just hoping for something a little smaller and more affordable to accomplish this.
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painkiller said:
I tried the FM3 in 4CM with three different amps and had no problems with noise. The important part was a Humbuster cable from the Output 2. Without Humbuster cable the noise was terrible.

That's the reason why I asked in a different thread, if the VP4 has Humbuster outputs. But Matt answered that it's not necessary. Something must be different here.
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Thanks guys...

This is the reason it's frustrating. Some people say "it works great" and others say "it's not usable".

Obviously, all scenarios are not equal, which makes it hard to quantify.
 
unix-guy said:
Thanks guys...

This is the reason it's frustrating. Some people say "it works great" and others say "it's not usable".

Obviously, all scenarios are not equal, which makes it hard to quantify.
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Very true. I think there's a few things at play here. 1, ultimately being subjective to each person's ear and taste, and 2 being what use-case each 4CM undergoes. @painkiller may not be using 4CM with a high-gain amp, where as I am. The noise floor only became an issue for me when I go to a gain channel. Ive also seen a couple people use gates in the signal path to compensate for the noise, whereas I don't like the way they feel once they're set to the point where they eliminate the noise.

It's 100% an issue, I think it just depends on the use-case, and how much someone is willing to deal with.

@painkiller out of curiosity, what amps did you use, and what are you playing?
 
I also think that the use case plays a role.
The amps which I use/used are/were an ENGL Ironball SE, Hook Dual 45 and Soldano Astro 20.

My Painkiller avatar may be bit misleading, I play all kinds of music. But when I play metal, I think my gain is always a little lower than what other metal players seem to use. This assessment comes from various presets from other users that I have downloaded and tested over time.

But since I never record and only play in the rehearsal rooms or on stage, I don't need extreme gain settings. That way the sound comes through better.
 
painkiller said:
I also think that the use case plays a role.
The amps which I use/used are/were an ENGL Ironball SE, Hook Dual 45 and Soldano Astro 20.

My Painkiller avatar may be bit misleading, I play all kinds of music. But when I play metal, I think my gain is always a little lower than what other metal players seem to use. This assessment comes from various presets from other users that I have downloaded and tested over time.

But since I never record and only play in the rehearsal rooms or on stage, I don't need extreme gain settings. That way the sound comes through better.
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A buddy of mine brought his Astro 20 over the other day and I hooked up the VP4 to it - worked great!
 
Admin M@ said:
@Eric Barnett want to weigh in here?
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Just realized I was tagged here! With the 4CM setup, it isn't as necessary; it works amazing, and with the EQ not taking up an effect slot, I've been able to manage with 4 effects at the same time, most of the time. That said, I also experimented with two, and that worked really well also. The only real challenge was switching, but it wasn't too bad...the effects in the loop, I had on one preset with the unit in Effects mode so I could turn stuff on and off, and the one on the front end in preset mode for compressors, overdrives, etc, to manage gain staging. But with my ENGL Retro 50 where I rely on the amp for the overdrive almost exclusively, I'm doing well with the 4CM and the single unit. The only thing I run a little short on is the solo in Analog Kid with Fred Barchetta, where I want a wet signal plus the pitch shift stuff. (I imagine I'll find others, but it's SUCH a good unit and so versatile.)
 
Do i understand that the folks talking about the fm3 being unusably noisy are all talking about hum? Not hiss?

It's important to distinguish between those symptoms, because the causes and cures are really different.

Hum is typically caused by grounding problems -- multiple ground paths causing ground loops, or lack of a ground where one is needed -- and settling those issues out can usually fix it.

Hiss is caused by gain and maybe its unwelcome companion, poor gain staging, possibly exacerbated by less than ideal circuit design and/or component quality (very unlikely in a Fractal unit). Get your gain staging right and you've done all you can as an end user with the particular gear you have.
 
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