The Elusive "Tube-ry Feel" of Axe-Fx III

Admin M@ said:
I'm laughing at the fact that there are no potato jokes in this discussion of tubers.
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Or time to fire up the rig and jam a little ZZ toobsteak boogie ... ;)

“I got a gal who lives on the hill​
She won’t do me but her sister will​
Do the boogie, the toobsteak boogie ...”​
 
Neill00 said:
I played a Helix for a couple of years and I agree you can get good tones out of it. Compared to the Axe FX 3, you have to work way harder to get there
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Helix's sounds are quite "raw" out of the box, and their stock presets are pretty much non-usable. It seems it has a much larger range of extreme tones/frequencies, as a result, it'd be much easier to get terrible tones out of it. That certainly drives a lot of users away, especially those who are inexperienced with recording/mixing whose ears are not properly trained, I witnessed many users just running in circles when dialing presets, and many give up soon after that.

On the other hand, good tones are all in there in Helix, it takes some experience to coax it out. In so many videos, this has been demonstrated, that all the big 3 could sound great in recording.

That being said, I think that is besides the point of the current discussion, what we hear from recordings carries little information about how the guitar player's finger/brain felt when he/she was playing it. I am NOT going after Axe III or FM3 to get better recording tones, I am already happy with Helix, Kemper or Axe8/FX-II...

I keep a 64 Custom Deluxe Reverb (which is awesome amp) nearby my desk on an amp stand right beside my Powercab212. By just playing Helix into PC212 alone, it sounds great especially when turned up a bit, but the handwired 64 CDR feel better, more inspiring, and the difference is not subtle to me.
 
I keep a 64 Custom Deluxe Reverb (which is awesome amp) nearby my desk on an amp stand right beside my Powercab212.
There is something going on with older amps.. not all of them, but a limited few. If you have been lucky enough to happen upon one, play one or better own one.. I have an original 66 JTM45. And yes it’s sublime. Sounds different to the JTM in the Axe and if I’m brutally honest - sounds different and FEEL’S different to all the other JTM45s I’ve played including, vintage and within 1 year of manufacturing dates.
Do I think the axe FX II could model it..? I could never get close to both tone and feel in the same preset.. meaning, If I dialed the tone closer, then I lost feel... Then if I dialed the amp to where the feel was close, then the tone was miles off.
The Axe III on the other hand is much better at giving you both feel and tone at the same time.
So, Do I think the Axe III can a have feel and tone of any given amp? - Yes, in a nutshell.... But you have to keep in mind, the amps or amp which has been modeled and exist in the Axe III today, may not have been the holy grail amp of the one YOU want/like.....
In other words - I Would maybe like to have Fractal go to several vintage and rare amp stores, try and pick the best of the best, (I do believe you know you have a gem when you know it) model it, and put them in the Axe....Then again, maybe this has already been done?
 
54321pj said:
I keep a 64 Custom Deluxe Reverb (which is awesome amp) nearby my desk on an amp stand right beside my Powercab212.
There is something going on with older amps.. not all of them, but a limited few. If you have been lucky enough to happen upon one, play one or better own one.. I have an original 66 JTM45. And yes it’s sublime. Sounds different to the JTM in the Axe and if I’m brutally honest - sounds different and FEEL’S different to all the other JTM45s I’ve played including, vintage and within 1 year of manufacturing dates.
Do I think the axe FX II could model it..? I could never get close to both tone and feel in the same preset.. meaning, If I dialed the tone closer, then I lost feel... Then if I dialed the amp to where the feel was close, then the tone was miles off.
The Axe III on the other hand is much better at giving you both feel and tone at the same time.
So, Do I think the Axe III can a have feel and tone of any given amp? - Yes, in a nutshell.... But you have to keep in mind, the amps or amp which has been modeled and exist in the Axe III today, may not have been the holy grail amp of the one YOU want/like.....
In other words - I Would maybe like to have Fractal go to several vintage and rare amp stores, try and pick the best of the best, (I do believe you know you have a gem when you know it) model it, and put them in the Axe....Then again, maybe this has already been done?
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Thank you. FWIW, it's not an rare vintage amp, it's one of Fender's current top line hand wired Deluxe Reverb, introduced in 2017 NAMM, and this year they introduced a corresponding hand wired version of 64 Custom Princeton Reverb, which I played briefly and it sounds and feels great!
 
I know the feel you're talking about on tube amps. That airy sponginess every time you hit those notes on the guitar. It's almost like your covered with an airy wall of sound with a matching oomph in tone. My friend and I we both A & B'd his Friedman BE 100 amp connected into his 2x12 cab with his stomp boxes between his AX8 that was connected to his Atomic CLR Neo MK2. To my disbelief, I was surprised that he had manage to make his AX8 sound and feel like his Friedman amp. A real tube amp. In conclusion I ended up buying his AX8.
 
Mark Al said:
Helix's sounds are quite "raw" out of the box, and their stock presets are pretty much non-usable. It seems it has a much larger range of extreme tones/frequencies, as a result, it'd be much easier to get terrible tones out of it. That certainly drives a lot of users away, especially those who are inexperienced with recording/mixing whose ears are not properly trained, I witnessed many users just running in circles when dialing presets, and many give up soon after that.
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I agree the Helix stock presets are unusable. I’m no sure what you are comparing Helix to when you say it has a ”much larger range of extreme tones/frequencies”. I think a lot of modellers have that I don’t know that anyone has done a comparison to say which has the larger range and I don’t think it matters. Any modeller that I‘ve ever used has default starting points that aren’t at an extreme, so you’re supposed to be starting at a point where the manufacturer decided was a good representative starting point for that amp, cab or effect. From there you should just have to tweak to your particular guitar, sound system and taste. I spent many hours creating patches in the two years I had it, not because I didn’t know what I was doing but because I built lots of patches. I played in 2 bands and used a different patch for every song. On top of that I just enjoy doing it so I built patches for songs that I just wanted to play at home. I find tweaking tones relaxing and fun. What I was trying to get at earlier is that it’s a more rewarding experience on the Axe FX 3. When I only owned the Helix and saw the YouTube videos I used to think this device is in the same category as AF3. But I kept reading about the superiority of the Fractal from everyone and got curious. So, thinking I would continue using Helix as my main rig, I got on the waiting list for an FM3, just to find out what all the fuss was about. When that got delayed and the Axe FX 3 went on sale I just decided to go for it. Once your Axe FX 3 arrives I think you’ll be able to tell almost immediately what I’m talking about.
 
For me compression is a huge part of my sound. Since the compressor updates it has destroyed my sound I worked on for months to achieve. And I cannot get it back...so, I’m sticking with the Helix for now
 
Budda said:
Why not just revert back to the previous firmware?
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good question. There is no equivalent compression in the Axe Fx to the red squeeze in the helix. There is a model of the Dynacomp in the Axe but it reacts differently. There is also no amp equivalent in the Axe for what I use. When you’ve found your sound it’s undeniable. You don’t have to search anymore.
 
One more question for you guys? With which output system do you have the best feel with your Axe? e.g. headphone, studio monitor, SS+Cab or FRFR? :)
 
I'm a little bit of an oddball in this group because I run a stereo pedalboard into the Axe III (using two inputs on the Axe). I've had Helix, Kemper and a bunch of great amps (BadCat, Two Rock, Matchless & Welagen - still have the Matchless and Welagen).

I completely agree with you in regards to feel... Helix felt least like an amp to me, Kemper was better, but every amp had a similar feel. Axe III is the only one I've used that feels like the real thing. It's dynamic, responsive and touch sensitive, and best of all takes pedals as well as the real thing.

I posted this in another thread, but this was my first shot a some Dumble SSS type tones. The best clip where I think you can even "hear the feel" is the last of the three starting at about 1:27. I'm not a huge John Mayer fan, so don't expect the playing to be right, or very good, haha.
 
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