Tempo randomly syncs to rising and falling edge of midi

[CheapEdge]

This could be a bug, and it's centrainly a whish for a change, the sooner the better .

I get the impression that the Axe 3 randomly syncs it's tempo to either the rising or the falling edge of a midi tempo signal, both if you use a CC for it and if you use a MIDI clock signal.
Normally that would not be a problem, as long as the tempo is correct everything is fine.
But if you want the LFO-phase to be correct it's definitely a problem, because every time the Axe syncs differently you have to adjust the LFO1B phase knob on and on and on. Not very nice ...

Never had this problem with the Axe 2, so my impression is that something has changed here in the Axe 3, and although I am generally very very happy with Axe 3, this one is not a change for the better I'm afraid.

I'm sending either a midi-pulse (CC-command) or a MIDI clock signal from a BT in Ableton Live 9.
I have tested with both options that the Axe follows tempo changes in Ableton perfectly, so I'm sure it's "connected". However sometimes on the rising edge and sometimes on the falling edge.

Just to make sure: can this be reproduced in the development center of FA? Is there perhaps some setting that I have'nt found yet, and that could adjust for this?

Using AxeFX 3 with FW Ares 2.02, Ableton LIVE 9 and Windows 10.

Hope to hear from you.
Keep the good works goin'!

 

[FractalAudio]

A CC command and MIDI clock are not pulses with "rising and falling edges". They are messages. When a message is received it is decoded and acted upon accordingly.

It's simply impossible to act upon the "rising edge" of a message because the message hasn't been received yet. That's like telling someone to jump and expecting them to jump as soon you start saying the word. The person has to hear the full word first, decide what it means and then act.

The Axe-Fx III is a completely different architecture than the II. Some differences in behavior are to be expected.

 

[Bakerman]

The Axe II LFOs wouldn't align with incoming MIDI clock or tempo CC in any particular way either. For that you'd need to control the LFO run state so it begins at the desired point in the beat/measure.

Maybe some improvements could be made here, like optional alignment to tempo CCs with adjustable phase for main (A) LFO.

 

[lqdsnddist]

I don’t think it’s ever been possible to sync things like lfo’s with external clock sources on external units, unless it happens by luck.

It’s no different than trying to sync something like a tremolo effect to a drummer. You can have the modulation rate at the right bpm, but acting getting those ups and downs in modulation syncing with quarter note high hats etc, is a totally different issue.

Exception is if you can start the LFO at a given point and you start the midi clock. I’ve been able to get things like rhythmically synced tremolo, delay etc, with midi, using drum machines, but often would need to adjust the midi clock a bit as it would drift and often eventually go out of sync.

 

[unix-guy]

I will say that the improvement to the Beat Clock processing you implemented a while back definitely made it less "jumpy".

However, it still seems to drift a bit...

Although I've only tried using Bandhelper to generate it, so I should try using an alternate source just to compare.

 

[CheapEdge]

A CC command and MIDI clock are not pulses with "rising and falling edges". They are messages. When a message is received it is decoded and acted upon accordingly.

It's simply impossible to act upon the "rising edge" of a message because the message hasn't been received yet. That's like telling someone to jump and expecting them to jump as soon you start saying the word. The person has to hear the full word first, decide what it means and then act.

The Axe-Fx III is a completely different architecture than the II. Some differences in behavior are to be expected.

Thank you for explaining that. Makes sense. However ... this does not solve my problem yet. I've sold my Axe2 so I cannot check it anymore, but I've had several songs where the LFO was in perfect sync with quarter note tempo setting midi CC's that I sent from my DAW. But I don't remember how I did it. Think the tempo counter was reset or something like that. I would expect there is a way to do this with the Axe3 as well. Any suggestions? Syncing the other way around (Axe3 -> DAW) would be fine too. Is that possible?

 

[CheapEdge]

I don’t think it’s ever been possible to sync things like lfo’s with external clock sources on external units, unless it happens by luck.

It’s no different than trying to sync something like a tremolo effect to a drummer. You can have the modulation rate at the right bpm, but acting getting those ups and downs in modulation syncing with quarter note high hats etc, is a totally different issue.

Exception is if you can start the LFO at a given point and you start the midi clock. I’ve been able to get things like rhythmically synced tremolo, delay etc, with midi, using drum machines, but often would need to adjust the midi clock a bit as it would drift and often eventually go out of sync.

Thanks for your reply. I agree the phase may need some one-time adjustment. I've had this perfectly working for several effects in the Axe2 for several U2 songs, eg the Wah, Delay mod and Tremolo. Sofar in the Axe3 I can't get this to work again. It jumps between "on the quarter beat" and "on the eights in-between".Hope this makes sense ... sorry, English is not my native language.

 

[CheapEdge]

I don’t think it’s ever been possible to sync things like lfo’s with external clock sources on external units, unless it happens by luck.

It’s no different than trying to sync something like a tremolo effect to a drummer. You can have the modulation rate at the right bpm, but acting getting those ups and downs in modulation syncing with quarter note high hats etc, is a totally different issue.

Exception is if you can start the LFO at a given point and you start the midi clock. I’ve been able to get things like rhythmically synced tremolo, delay etc, with midi, using drum machines, but often would need to adjust the midi clock a bit as it would drift and often eventually go out of sync.

Thank you! You just gave me a great idea! I'll search for something that can be "triggered". Probably something there in the controller section that can, in it's turn, steer a wah or tremolo, etc.

 

[Admin M@]

@CheapEdge, I think you may be confusing tempo with alignment. The Axe-Fx syncs rates and times to tempo (aka MIDI BEAT CLOCK), but does not align its LFOs to beats and bar lines via MIDI SONG POSITION POINTER. To understand the difference, imagine two regular clocks set to different times. Their rates are precisely synchronized, but they are not aligned.

@lqdsnddist you're on the right track... you just need to issue a quick STOP/START every few bars to re-align the LFO or Sequencer. This works great.

 

[CheapEdge]

@CheapEdge, I think you may be confusing tempo with alignment. The Axe-Fx syncs rates and times to tempo (aka MIDI BEAT CLOCK), but does not align its LFOs to beats and bar lines via MIDI SONG POSITION POINTER. To understand the difference, imagine two regular clocks set to different times. Their rates are precisely synchronized, but they are not aligned.

@lqdsnddist you're on the right track... you just need to issue a quick STOP/START every few bars to re-align the LFO or Sequencer. This works great.

Thanks for your reactions. Since I wrote my initial message on this I also realised that I have not been very precise in the wording of my problem. Indeed the Axe syncs TEMPO perfectly to a repeated CC command to TEMPO TAP or to a MIDI CLOCK signal. The problem I'm having is the phase (alignment) of the LFO in relation to the tempo, not the tempo itself.
Also, meanwhile - and inspired by @lqdsnddist - I've been experimenting a bit more and found a way to get the Axe to do what I need it to do., which is produce a phase-synced LFO modifier signal.

Here it is, hopefully this can be useful for others too.

I sync the Axe GLOBAL TEMPO using the MIDI CLOCK from my DAW.
Created a MIDI track along the song in my DAW that sends RUN "triggers" at the beginning of each bar to the RUN button of the SEQUENCER.
Set the SEQUENCER to 1/8 TEMPO / 64 steps and created a pattern in it of alternating 100% - 0%.
Smoothened the now perfectly phase synced square wave pattern that this produces a bit by using the QUANTIZE button.
Fed this as a MODIFIER into my WAH (actually the FREQ and Q settings of a FILTER)
Works like a charm!

From the latest reaction of @ADMIN I understand the LFO has a RUN button as well. Did not 'discover' that one yet, and I'm not with my gear at this moment, so I can't try that one right now, but will do so soon. I suppose that should work fine too, and maybe even better because you'll have more choice in wave patterns.

Thanks to all who have reacted, been very helpful and as far as I'm concerned: problem solved & case closed.
And now back to making some noise !!!

 

[CheapEdge]

The Axe II LFOs wouldn't align with incoming MIDI clock or tempo CC in any particular way either. For that you'd need to control the LFO run state so it begins at the desired point in the beat/measure.

Maybe some improvements could be made here, like optional alignment to tempo CCs with adjustable phase for main (A) LFO.

Thanks, I'll try that and yes, that would be a nice improvement.

 

[Kamil Kisiel]

The thing with MIDI clock is that there is that it's simply (by convention) 24 pulses per quarter note. There's no indication which pulse is actually the quarter note, never mind where in the bar it is, so there's no reference point to which you can sync the phase of an LFO by the clock alone. That's why you need some other way to sync it, such as toggling the LFO run state.