Teach me how to pick the right IR

[kingston]

I am a happy XL+ user, and have been for more than a year. Using FRFR (Xitone open backs). Playing mostly bluesy rock and pop, no high gain stuff.

The learning curve have been steep, but I really think I am on top of this unit. One thing I've learned so far, is that the right IR makes the difference. I bought a few cab packs, and found a few that is working with a certain patch.
Still, I can't get to "know" my IRs, I seem to start all over, everytime I want to make a new patch. I would like to get to a point where I have 5-10 IRs that are my basic.

When I begin to build a new patch I think what would I do in the analog world, so if I am basing a patch on Vox, I would think a Blue IR. Might need to think differently. But, I often end up zapping through a lot of IR's until I find something I like, and getting confused in comparing so many sound possibilities.

Recently it seem like the makers of IR (ML, OH and Cabir) have been focusing on making it more simple, and not giving so many options in choosing IRs.

What do you guys do when you are finding the right IR?
How many go-to IRs do you have, and do think of them in combination of a specific amp model? Or is it more guitar, amp and IR?
How do you organise them in axe edit?
Do you always pair a certain amp model with same IR?
How do I get my own bundle IRs that I know, or is that wishful thinking.

 

[h.c.e.]

@ML SOUND LAB posted recently that he was wanting to do more in depth videos on his youtube channel and was looking for good topic ideas for videos... might be a cool one for him to delve into there.

 

[B:ASSMASTER]

I have something playing in the Looper block and I have it set to auto audition IR's just by clicking on them. Since I use OwnHammer's IR's, I start with the OH1 mixes and just start clicking through cabs until I find one I like. Then, maybe I'll narrow it down within that one cab, by clicking through it's different mixes or single mics.

Long story short, use your ears and click away!

 

[favance]

Long story short, use your ears and click away!

What if you've long ago blown out your ears by standing in front of a 200w Marshall stack?

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

I am a happy XL+ user, and have been for more than a year. Using FRFR (Xitone open backs). Playing mostly bluesy rock and pop, no high gain stuff.

The learning curve have been steep, but I really think I am on top of this unit. One thing I've learned so far, is that the right IR makes the difference. I bought a few cab packs, and found a few that is working with a certain patch.
Still, I can't get to "know" my IRs, I seem to start all over, everytime I want to make a new patch. I would like to get to a point where I have 5-10 IRs that are my basic.

When I begin to build a new patch I think what would I do in the analog world, so if I am basing a patch on Vox, I would think a Blue IR. Might need to think differently. But, I often end up zapping through a lot of IR's until I find something I like, and getting confused in comparing so many sound possibilities.

Recently it seem like the makers of IR (ML, OH and Cabir) have been focusing on making it more simple, and not giving so many options in choosing IRs.

What do you guys do when you are finding the right IR?
How many go-to IRs do you have, and do think of them in combination of a specific amp model? Or is it more guitar, amp and IR?
How do you organise them in axe edit?
Do you always pair a certain amp model with same IR?
How do I get my own bundle IRs that I know, or is that wishful thinking.

It can definitely be very time consuming if you aim to completely master IR's and how they work. I learn new stuff every now and then and I've been studying guitar tone actively for almost a decade. Stuff like "you get that certain cool fuzzy modern "USA" thing if you have these specific EQ spikes around 9khz" is the type of things I'm talking about. You can also decide if you want to make it hard for yourself or easy. If you demand more, be ready to spend some time.

The reason I've been making my packs simpler (yet not cutting down the number of IR's in the pack to keep the versatility) is because every time I launch a new pack there are still people who can't seem to decide which IR is the best IR out of the dozen IR's I chose as the "Ace IR's". Sometimes I kind of take a step back and say "Is there a best IR? Aren't they all good in their own way?". You can come up with a system that works for you in the long run though.

I know my personal tastes quite well (though I don't limit my packs to my own tastes as that would be unprofessional ) I know I like my IR's flat. I know I like my IR's rich in the mids. I know I like my IR's super pleasant in the highs preferably with a frequency roll off starting around 2-3khz. That brings me to the Mesa V30 or pre-Rola or Creamback territory essentially. Then it's a matter of fine tuning the sound. For rock I love the SM57-R121 and SM57-M160 blends. For metal I sometimes prefer the SM57-MD421 blends. I don't like blending more than two mics and honestly sometimes a single SM57 is all you need. (more mics blended in, less raw and realistic sound) The reason why I like these types of IR's is that they are super easy to work with. They are plug'n'play IR's when playing live. They're the type of IR's that only take you 3min to create a patch that you can record your album with. Still these are just a few random adjectives when an IR can literally fit these rules with limitless differences. Here's a video I made with my top ten IR list a year ago:



The thing about your ears is that they change as well and what was neutral one year ago might not be so neutral anymore. Looking at that video now, this time around I definitely preferred the Diezel (ML Dizzy Cab Pack) over the others. Tomorrow might be different. My point is that I never get the feeling of being lost or overwhelmed even with tens of thousands of IR's that I work with every day. It's more like "finally I have total control over my guitar sound!" since I definitely struggled with my guitar sound when I was younger. Being able to get these sounds is so easy these days.

What do you guys do when you are finding the right IR?
I have spectrum analyzers on to support what I'm hearing. I have a fake double guitar project in my DAW so I can quickly try the IR's in a mix when going through them. Sometimes you hear the "main character" of and I better when it's in a crowded mix. When I find something that I like I mark it down and continue. Then I compare the ones I marked down and decide the one I liked the most and that's essentially it.

How many go-to IRs do you have, and do think of them in combination of a specific amp model? Or is it more guitar, amp and IR?
I have tens of thousands of IR's. I collect my work-horse IR's in the Axe-Fx user slots and whenever an IR impresses me I will give them a boost on my list. The true work horse IR that is #1 right now is ML USA Bulb SM57-R121 03, it just seems to work for all genres and do an awesome job. I have my go-to amps that I know work. Friedman HBE, Brit 800 #34, USA Lead, 5153... etc. I get what I'm looking for with about 5-10 different amp sims. I definitely don't scroll through all 200+ amp sims for every tone.

How do you organise them in axe edit?
Cab Manage! You can change the order and all that and just save at the end. It's great!!

Do you always pair a certain amp model with same IR?
Yes and no... sometimes I want to go for something specific but amps like the Friedman HBE can do metal, rock and even slight driven tones really well so maybe that one gets the most love.

How do I get my own bundle IRs that I know, or is that wishful thinking?
No one else can tell you which IR's will stand the test of time for you. I still get people come up to me saying that my first Cab Pack 7 (released two years ago) is the best Cab Pack ever created. It's about finding something that works and makes your life easier. The best measure for finding a good IR is that it ends up saving your time. Whenever you use it you are satisfied and your band mates are satisfied and your audio engineer is satisfied. That's when you know. I highly recommend starting off with that top 10 list I had in my video. I'm sure you will love at least a few of them!

 

[barhrecords]

I am a happy XL+ user, and have been for more than a year. Using FRFR (Xitone open backs). Playing mostly bluesy rock and pop, no high gain stuff.

The learning curve have been steep, but I really think I am on top of this unit. One thing I've learned so far, is that the right IR makes the difference. I bought a few cab packs, and found a few that is working with a certain patch.
Still, I can't get to "know" my IRs, I seem to start all over, everytime I want to make a new patch. I would like to get to a point where I have 5-10 IRs that are my basic.

When I begin to build a new patch I think what would I do in the analog world, so if I am basing a patch on Vox, I would think a Blue IR. Might need to think differently. But, I often end up zapping through a lot of IR's until I find something I like, and getting confused in comparing so many sound possibilities.

Recently it seem like the makers of IR (ML, OH and Cabir) have been focusing on making it more simple, and not giving so many options in choosing IRs.

What do you guys do when you are finding the right IR?
How many go-to IRs do you have, and do think of them in combination of a specific amp model? Or is it more guitar, amp and IR?
How do you organise them in axe edit?
Do you always pair a certain amp model with same IR?
How do I get my own bundle IRs that I know, or is that wishful thinking.

When I rapidly audition different IR's, it makes the differences between the IR's more pronounced. This can lead to none of them sounding "right" lol

Or a favorite IR suddenly sounds too dark or too bright or nasally or whatever.

I really feel like you need develop listening skills. When something isn't "right". What exactly is wrong?

Once can determine what you need to change. Then learn what settings in the Fractal will help you make that change.

That having been said *I* never use my ears and I use only G12H-30's... just kidding.

I do as you say and pair up amps with commonly used speaker / cab combinations. Also, I listen to the recordings section and might purchase or try an amp / speaker combination based on someone else's experience with it.

Thirdly I try combinations from rig rundowns on the internet.

My needs are really basic. I only use 2-5 presets live and right now all of them are using the same factory cab, its near the end of the list, one of the new Celestion cabs. Previously I used only 1 IR too. I have purchased about 7 cab packs too. I've gone back to factory cabs for the time being.

 

[kingston]

Stuff like "you get that certain cool fuzzy modern "USA" thing if you have these specific EQ spikes around 9khz" is the type of things I'm talking about.

I really feel like you need develop listening skills. When something isn't "right". What exactly is wrong?

I think you are on to something here, since I can't tell what frequency are pronounced, or what it is that makes an IR unsuitable for my taste.
Is there a way of getting at this, or does this come with experience?

The mic used to capture the IR is also a big part equation, and different mic has different flavor to add.
I have never spent much time in the studio, only rehearsel and gigging, so I don't know a lot of mics and there frequenc respons.
Can you tell if certain mic combinations works better than other. Like a SM57 has a certain character that works well with bunch of mics, but the SM57 doesn't work well with other mic, because their characters don't match.
Or is this just in theory?

 

[austinbuddy]

This is a really good thread. The Cab IS HALF THE SOUND. It's the final frequency filter.

When I was constructing my 700+ Naked Amps TonePack covering every amp in the Fractal, I made two scenes per preset. Deliberately in several cases I would change cabs in Scene 2 from Scene 1, just to show how much of a change in tone/sound that can make for an amp. Generally, if it was a bright amp, I'd pair it with a darker cab, and vice versa -balance it out.

After time (I've put thousands of hours in on Fractal products) you begin to know what certain cabs sound like. A good thing to do is go into your factory cabs (via Axe-Edit) and color code them. All my factory greenback cabs are coded/tagged green, and V30s are tagged blue, for example. You can use Axe-Edit to do this -- a trick lots of people don't know about or use, and which can help you find stuff easier in the factory cabs. Color code your favorites!

Sometimes unexpected cabs sound great - it really pays to use your ears and not just your eyes. The beauty of the Fractal is that you can mix and match! I will pair a Marshall like the darker factory cab Lexrst R121 with the PR55 Black backs which is crunchy and trebly -- blended in a stereo cab, they can sound great where you might never use them alone.

Some other things to consider:

-The M160 is a really good balanced mic for guitars (this is a favorite of legendary producer Eddie Kramer and you hear it all over Hendrix albums), If you have commercial IRs, check those out using an MI160 in different spots as single IR first. I will say the vintage M160s sound do different than modern production ones.

-Blending an SM57 and R121 (as said above) often satisfies most players.

-Blending two SM57s, one on cone and one either off axis or cap edge, sometimes gets you there.

Everyone hears differently. You can get overwhelmed with all the choices in Cab IRs to be sure. I like that Mikko provides some "Ace" single mic choices as well as mixes in his packs as starting points. I just finished a Cab IR session with a LOT of vintage amps and August will be doing mixes for inclusion in the final product myself.

 

[kingston]

Thank so much. You are giving me some great things to try out in order to get more experience.
The color code I didn't know.

 

[austinbuddy]

Thank so much. You are giving me some great things to try out in order to get more experience.
The color code I didn't know.

There is a LOT of cool stuff that is not easy to know at first -- my job at AustinBuddy is to teach people this stuff so they can get the tones they want faster and easier. The Fractal is amazing, but it has a learning curve -- once you move it, you too can be a Fractal-Jedi Master in no time!

 

[bradlake]

There is a LOT of cool stuff that is not easy to know at first -- my job at AustinBuddy is to teach people this stuff so they can get the tones they want faster and easier. The Fractal is amazing, but it has a learning curve -- once you move it, you too can be a Fractal-Jedi Master in no time!

I gotta say, having spent just a little time on @austinbuddy 's new amp pack..this may be one of the most important third party releases ever...Buddy's ear and tweaking skills are immediately apparent, and many of the amps sound clearer and more present than I have heard them before....STRONGLY recommend you check them out, especially if you've been experincing the dreaded 'blanket on the amp' perceptions.....

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

Dudes I just updated pickups to my Les Paul and did an A/B of before and after... That's 200€ spent on absolutely no difference in sound whatsoever. Maybe 1dB more lows. (Going from Burstbucker Pros to Slash Seymour Duncan pickups) I will definitely create a video and post high quality comparison clips as well... so the next time when someone says Cab Packs are too expensive I can rub it in their faces. Okay that sounds mean but you get the point.

Back on topic though, when auditioning IR's you need to have a neutralizer to give you a sense of balance. If you go shopping for perfumes you need to smell coffee beans inbetween to neutralize your nose. Same thing goes for IR's. I suggest using a reference like a guitar tone that you love. Once you've got a good sense of what is bright and what is not you can use everyday objects... like personally I knock on the table and compare that to a palm mute. I know it sounds silly but listening to something completely different and really concentrating on that sound helps you identify a natural sounding EQ balance for a guitar sound as well. Pretty advanced stuff so stick to the reference guitar tone trick if this sounds like foil hats to you.

Just be aware that it's very common to dive deep into the darkness when comparing IR's and always searching for "less fizz" and eventually you end up with a bedroom guitar tone that will never cut through in a band mix live or in studio.

 

[dr bonkers]

I am a happy XL+ user, and have been for more than a year. Using FRFR (Xitone open backs). What do you guys do when you are finding the right IR?
How many go-to IRs do you have, and do think of them in combination of a specific amp model? Or is it more guitar, amp and IR?
How do you organise them in axe edit?
Do you always pair a certain amp model with same IR?
How do I get my own bundle IRs that I know, or is that wishful thinking.

1. There are 2 ways I start this. Either I start with:

a) a recording of one of my tones that I know cuts in a mix/band context.
b) an artist's song that is the same wheelhouse as the tone I hear in my head​

2. Then select the instrument that I want to use to get that target tone. I record a dry loop of that instrument play chords and single note runs.
3. I create a preset with a cab selected to the scratchpad 001 and shunts on either side (set rolloffs in block at 75 Hz and 10 KHz to start for gtr, extended a bit for bass on both ends). You may need to slight adjust as you get deeper in this process.
4. Play the loop and audition ir's straight from the storage fold for the cab pack's ir's. I am listening to the effect of the ir on the loop acoustically to match the similar eq curve I hear in the guitar or bass recording.
5. I time every ten minutes, stop the loop, rest my ears for 5 minutes with complete silence, then play the reference recording I started with and go back to auditioning ir's noting which ones are in the ballpark.
6. Once I have a list of 10 possible ir choices, I figure out which amp style will get me closest to the reference recording or the sound in my head and start auditioning those amp blocks set with flat EQ but adjusting gain with one ir selected with the loop playing.
7. Keep using the 10 minute timer to know when to rest my ears and reset my good tone reference as ins tep #5.
8. Once I get a close enough with a flat amp block, then I rotate the top 10 ir's and compare to the reference to get even closer.
9. When I feel it's really close, I note the "best" ir for this preset and amp combo, then I go about honing in on the sound using BMTP, amp compression, Speaker Page Q and Freq, EQ, then Variac.
10. If still not 100% there, then I may tweak certain parameters in the preamp section, then test drive with some live playing and adjust parameters for "feel".
11. I print a wet version with the loop. Wait a day and compare to the starting goal tone. Usually I have something that I am very happy with by using the rest periods.​

This technique works really well once you know the frequency curves of the different mics in a mic pack. You will only learn them by experience playing with them if you have not worked around them for years in a studio like I have.

The process takes me maybe 45 minutes to get my preset tone or 1-1/2 hours total with all effects setup.

YMMV!

 

[kingston]

1. There are 2 ways I start this. Either I start with:

a) a recording of one of my tones that I know cuts in a mix/band context.
b) an artist's song that is the same wheelhouse as the tone I hear in my head​

2. Then select the instrument that I want to use to get that target tone. I record a dry loop of that instrument play chords and single note runs.
3. I create a preset with a cab selected to the scratchpad 001 and shunts on either side (set rolloffs in block at 75 Hz and 10 KHz to start for gtr, extended a bit for bass on both ends). You may need to slight adjust as you get deeper in this process.
4. Play the loop and audition ir's straight from the storage fold for the cab pack's ir's. I am listening to the effect of the ir on the loop acoustically to match the similar eq curve I hear in the guitar or bass recording.
5. I time every ten minutes, stop the loop, rest my ears for 5 minutes with complete silence, then play the reference recording I started with and go back to auditioning ir's noting which ones are in the ballpark.
6. Once I have a list of 10 possible ir choices, I figure out which amp style will get me closest to the reference recording or the sound in my head and start auditioning those amp blocks set with flat EQ but adjusting gain with one ir selected with the loop playing.
7. Keep using the 10 minute timer to know when to rest my ears and reset my good tone reference as ins tep #5.
8. Once I get a close enough with a flat amp block, then I rotate the top 10 ir's and compare to the reference to get even closer.
9. When I feel it's really close, I note the "best" ir for this preset and amp combo, then I go about honing in on the sound using BMTP, amp compression, Speaker Page Q and Freq, EQ, then Variac.
10. If still not 100% there, then I may tweak certain parameters in the preamp section, then test drive with some live playing and adjust parameters for "feel".
11. I print a wet version with the loop. Wait a day and compare to the starting goal tone. Usually I have something that I am very happy with by using the rest periods.​

This technique works really well once you know the frequency curves of the different mics in a mic pack. You will only learn them by experience playing with them if you have not worked around them for years in a studio like I have.

The process takes me maybe 45 minutes to get my preset tone or 1-1/2 hours total with all effects setup.

YMMV!

Great. Thanks a lot. A step by step list is sooo great, and will help me a lot.