Wish Sync "Sweetened Tunings" w/ Pitch Block/Virtual Capo

[bleujazz3]

Not sure if this is an issue or not, but seemed like a reasonable wish.

Our FM9-Edit allows to sweeten your string tuning by various cents so as to produce a more "accurate" chord rendering/tracking for a variety of guitars. James Taylor produced a YT video some years ago that describes sweetened tunings.

The reason for the wish is that the sweetened tunings could subsequently throw off a pitch block or virtual capo.
The wish is to somehow sync the pitch block and virtual capo with the sweetened tunings capability of the FM9-Edit that would allow the sweetened tunings to carry over to the pitch block/virtual capo with little to no artifacts nor warbling.

IIRC, this issue has not been addressed by FAS yet. If it has, my apologies, and thanks for your relentless good work.

 

[ocaptainjr2]

I may be missing something, but I don't understand. I use a Peterson tuner with sweetened tuning and the virtual capo. I have not experienced any issues. It works equally well when if I use the tuner in the Axe without the few cents difference.

Are you thinking the axe is pitch shifting to a certain pitch. For example, sweetened tuning generally have the high b string down 2.3'ish cents. Are you thinking the virtual capo down a 1/2 step shifts this to b flat and not b flat -2.3 cents?

 

[Greg Ferguson]

The reason for the wish is that the sweetened tunings could subsequently throw off a pitch block or virtual capo.

If a sweetened tuning would throw them off, it seems to me that so would bending a note or using string vibrato or a tremolo bar or pushing/pulling on the neck, or using any of the various alternate/open tunings players use. And what about slide or pedal steel players?

 

[ocaptainjr2]

If a sweetened tuning would throw them off, it seems to me that so would bending a note or using string vibrato or a tremolo bar or pushing/pulling on the neck, or using any of the various alternate/open tunings players use. And what about slide or pedal steel players?

I think we're on the same page in our thought process. That is why I didn't understand the question.

 

[bleujazz3]

I may be missing something, but I don't understand. I use a Peterson tuner with sweetened tuning and the virtual capo. I have not experienced any issues. It works equally well when if I use the tuner in the Axe without the few cents difference.

Are you thinking the axe is pitch shifting to a certain pitch. For example, sweetened tuning generally have the high b string down 2.3'ish cents. Are you thinking the virtual capo down a 1/2 step shifts this to b flat and not b flat -2.3 cents?

As was said in the OP, I wasn't sure if this was an issue or not. Was just following the natural course of research posing a question: Does the FM9-Edit's sweetened tuning affect the pitch block or virtual capo?

Your own words tell the truth. When implementing a Petersen StroboStomp tuner with sweetened tuning, the virtual capo seem to be affected.

It may not matter when using a virtual capo. B-flat down a ½ step is likely not the same as b-flat down 2.3ish cents. The virtual capo may display a more delineated variance of steps or cents.

That in itself might be a wish...please display virtual capos in terms of steps or cents together if they're not already...if they are...thanks for your foresight...

Regards bending notes or pedal steel players, it would make more sense to tune your instrument to whatever sweetened tuning you prefer, and implement a virtual capo as necessary for chording. I think the problem exists more likely in single note bending and pedal steel than strumming or chording where a virtual capo would be better employed...

With note bending, the pitch block may still have minor artifacts... I've not built enough user presets to verify this, so the more who contribute to this post, the better idea we'll have if the wish were valid or not...

 

[ocaptainjr2]

Your posts is a bunch of random thoughts and questions tied together as a wish which you admittedly have built enough presets to verify. I verified what I could understand, but then you spin in another tangent. I have honestly no idea what you are saying...not sure how my "own words tell the truth".

The virtual capo shifts the pitch according to how it is set...I honestly don't understand the wish when the virtual capo already has steps and cents last I checked. You keep saying there is a problem, but there isn't one. If you set it to virtual capo -1, whatever you feed it with by shifted down 1/2 a step whether that be a guitar or pedal steel (or whatever instrument you decide to throw in your next post) is in tune, out of tune, or sweetened.

Trying to help people on the forum has become impossibly difficult and frustrating. Good luck with whatever you are trying to accomplish, or understand, or discuss...Whoever else tries to help with this; you are a better and more patient person than I.

 

[unix-guy]

Your posts is a bunch of random thoughts and questions tied together as a wish which you admittedly have built enough presets to verify. I verified what I could understand, but then you spin in another tangent. I have honestly no idea what you are saying...not sure how my "own words tell the truth".

The virtual capo shifts the pitch according to how it is set...I honestly don't understand the wish when the virtual capo already has steps and cents last I checked. You keep saying there is a problem, but there isn't one. If you set it to virtual capo -1, whatever you feed it with by shifted down 1/2 a step whether that be a guitar or pedal steel (or whatever instrument you decide to throw in your next post) is in tune, out of tune, or sweetened.

Trying to help people on the forum has become impossibly difficult and frustrating. Good luck with whatever you are trying to accomplish, or understand, or discuss...Whoever else tries to help with this; you are a better and more patient person than I.

I think the origin of the post is this:

It has been stated by Fractal that the pitch shifting works best when the guitar is properly intonated and tuned. Otherwise, some artifacts can be more pronounced, especially with the Virtual Capo.

The question was raised in another thread about whether tuning using a "sweetened" tuning would affect this.

Given that a sweetened tuning is intended to make the guitar generally more in tune, I would assume the answer is that it also make the VC have better results but I don't really know.

I don't typically use the VC so I haven't tried comparing...

 

[mr_fender]

You couldn't compensate for per string offsets if you wanted to because the tracker would have no idea which string you are playing, only the pitch. Polyphony would complicate that even more. The same note can be played in multiple places on the neck.

Beyond that, the Virtual Capo and Chromatic modes are fixed pitch offsets. I don't think they need to track relative to individual notes at all. The diatonic shifter would though, since it's often choosing between different intervals to stay diatonic. I would think the pitch offset would need to be pretty large to be ambiguously between notes (closer to +/- 50 cents).

 

[bleujazz3]

I think the origin of the post is this:

It has been stated by Fractal that the pitch shifting works best when the guitar is properly intonated and tuned. Otherwise, some artifacts can be more pronounced, especially with the Virtual Capo.

The question was raised in another thread about whether tuning using a "sweetened" tuning would affect this.

Given that a sweetened tuning is intended to make the guitar generally more in tune, I would assume the answer is that it also make the VC have better results but I don't really know.

I don't typically use the VC so I haven't tried comparing...

I think this is where the original wish in part comes from...the fact that the pitch block works best when the guitar is properly tuned and intonated...

 

[bleujazz3]

You couldn't compensate for per string offsets if you wanted to because the tracker would have no idea which string you are playing, only the pitch. Polyphony would complicate that even more. The same note can be played in multiple places on the neck.

Beyond that, the Virtual Capo and Chromatic modes are fixed pitch offsets. I don't think they need to track relative to individual notes at all. The diatonic shifter would though, since it's often choosing between different intervals to stay diatonic. I would think the pitch offset would need to be pretty large to be ambiguously between notes (closer to +/- 50 cents).

I think this is where I begin to nap in music class LOL...although I understand what chromatic means there are a number of diatonic tones I equally don't understand...and in this case the artifacts that might be introduced by intervals of the diatonic tones (a minor 3rd interval, as opposed to a 6th interval, with the same root, for example).

So the wish might need be modified to something regards reducing the warbling of larger diatonic intervals. Has anyone found this to be the case? Or is this just wishful thinking concerning potential issues that don't affect normal virtual capo or pitch block play?

 

[bleujazz3]

Your posts is a bunch of random thoughts and questions tied together as a wish which you admittedly have built enough presets to verify. I verified what I could understand, but then you spin in another tangent. I have honestly no idea what you are saying...not sure how my "own words tell the truth".

The virtual capo shifts the pitch according to how it is set...I honestly don't understand the wish when the virtual capo already has steps and cents last I checked. You keep saying there is a problem, but there isn't one. If you set it to virtual capo -1, whatever you feed it with by shifted down 1/2 a step whether that be a guitar or pedal steel (or whatever instrument you decide to throw in your next post) is in tune, out of tune, or sweetened.

Trying to help people on the forum has become impossibly difficult and frustrating. Good luck with whatever you are trying to accomplish, or understand, or discuss...Whoever else tries to help with this; you are a better and more patient person than I.

Please forgive the way my posts occur...I grew up with a developmental disability that affects the way I think, speak, and write...and sometimes causes tangential thinking and an expression of my thoughts in ways normal folks might not readily agree with. The condition is difficult to control and sometimes makes for difficult conversation... But let's set matters straight... I've not built enough presets for the formulation of this wish.

From what I'm reading here, the virtual capo already has steps and cents as demarcations. If that's the case, part of the wish is already solved.

Perhaps what this wish more directly addresses is how can we identify what causes any artifacts regards the diatonic pitch block? Also, are there any artifacts being produced with the chromatic pitch block? If yes, how can we reduce or minimize these artifacts?

 

[ChristThePhone]

I think your wish makes sense for cases where intelligent pitch shifting is needed meaning the absolute frequency of the note played must be calculated and a shifted note must be generated according to the key and scale chosen. This intelligent pitch shifting doesn't like bends or usage of the tremolo while all other shifters calculate a shifted note relative to the one currently played. Because it doesn't need to calculate the exact frequency it is immune to bends, tremolo, or detuned guitars.

 

[bleujazz3]

If a sweetened tuning would throw them off, it seems to me that so would bending a note or using string vibrato or a tremolo bar or pushing/pulling on the neck, or using any of the various alternate/open tunings players use. And what about slide or pedal steel players?

Greg,

I thought I'd try to reassess my thought process regards my wish. Here's something to think about: The FM9 is an ADA device, meaning analog/digital/analog. Any processing of signal is done in the digital realm. That means, any sweetened tuning (read: adjustments cents-wise plus or minus to individual strings) is likely independent of pitch block or virtual capo.

That means, in the digital realm, a sweetened note is defined in nature and is not effected by pitch block or virtual capo when chords are constructed. Why? Because an absolute sweetened note is static. And, chords constructed with sweetened tuning are also static, save for any neck tension, or dynamic motion. A bend, tremolo, or push/pull on the guitar neck are dynamic notes that change during the course of the dynamic motion.

The pitch block and virtual capo are not currently designed to read dynamic notes and as a result can only be utilized at fixed or defined intervals that supposedly produce melodic notes. Although it seems like a problematic workaround, if the FM9 its doing any of this currently, I'd be amazed that it does this at all. Consider the direction the modern jazz fusion is taking and perhaps this wish might be of value for the added tension/release we hear is this style of music.

Anyway, I thought to consider the sweetened tuning/pitch block/virtual capo wish once again, just in case someone had tucked this away for future reference. Allow me a few days to let me put this through some review. If it's possible to reach some clarification, I'll revisit this thread again..

 

[FractalAudio]

This is not possible since the processing has no idea which string is being played. I.e., the processing does not know if you are playing an open B or B 4th fret on the G string.

If you want more "ideal" harmonies you can set the temperament to "Just" in the block.

 

[bleujazz3]

This is not possible since the processing has no idea which string is being played. I.e., the processing does not know if you are playing an open B or B 4th fret on the G string.

If you want more "ideal" harmonies you can set the temperament to "Just" in the block.

Thought to ask: If the processor doesn't know what string is being played, can the processor at least identify the note? It may not matter what string is involved if the note is identified. (Although I don't know what purpose this would serve, it may be helpful for dynamic note playing (tremolo, bends, neck push/pull).

The advantage of identifying a dynamic note would require some calculus to determine how many cents a tremolo/bend/push might be needed to create a new pitch or harmonized note. (Am having a little difficulty articulating what I'm trying to say here). IOW, determining when an identifiable note is attained, the pitch or harmonizer would latch onto the identified note as a "static note" until the trem/bend/push/pull tension was released.

The purpose of the static note being important here is so that if one plays various non-dynamic (static) notes more often, there's a greater option for things like sustain / sustain into feedback, etc. Also, bending into a static note and sustaining into feedback is something an amp can do. See the advantage?

 

[ChristThePhone]

It needs to be able to identify the note or else it couldn't generate a harmony according to a certain mode / scale. But you're not tuning notes but strings. The note has a range that the box will allow it to deviate from the center until it identifies it as the next half step below or above. That's why it cannot play pitch perfect harmonies for bent strings AND stay within a scale/mode. That would require dynamic changes of the base tuning away from the standard 440Hz (or whatever you chose) and being able to tell when to apply it (bent notes) and when not. The box sees only the frequency, not the way you create it.