Struggling with dynamic and punchy cleans

[lqdsnddist]

This is a key point.

What is the "key" part of it ?

It is one person's opinion that seemingly any real tube amp produces sounds that the Axe-FX seemingly can't, or more specifically that they haven't gotten the sound they are after. You actually seem to be throwing out statements that it "can't" do it, and using one additional opinion as proof of what you already feel to be true.

I'm not saying your wrong per your own taste, the Axe very well may not be able to produce the sound YOU want, but there are certainly hundreds if not thousands of people who have posted in these forums about how much they simply love the cleans, and how they've sold off a bunch of amps etc.

 

[chris]

can one of the 2 guys post a recording of the "bad" sound without the punch?

it may be a "feel" thing, but without any sort of reference, we can't help.

i guess we've heard one recording of the good tone on that IR sample page. what does a bad one sound like?

 

[chris]

I used the term "bad" frivolously.

It would simply help to hear a recording with the punch and one without as a reference and starting point.

 

[FractalAudio]

It never sounds bad, lol. Sometimes I think my sentiments are lost in terms of my nitpicking (let me emphasize that the Axe-FX sounds great in so many ways) - what I am referring to, and what I believe the OP is referring, is indeed more of a feel thing - just a gut-punchy type of percussiveness and dynamic response. Again something that I find easy in a decent tube amp and not easy to reproduce with the Axe.
Perhaps this is TOTAL user-error. I was proven wrong before about aspects of fizz, HOWEVER the OP claims that he was able to dial in this alleged "punchy-mojo" immediately with the Kemper. Because I've always felt the punchy-thing lacking too the possibility that the Kemper might be able to reproduce what I feel I'm missing is giving me massive cognitive dissonance.

People confuse and open-back combo amp IN THE ROOM for "dynamics". That same amp sounds completely different when recorded, which is what the Axe-Fx reproduces. If you want that in-the-room sound use and open-back cab and turn off the cabinet modeling.

 

[dbun]

We need some clips for comparison and to hear what the OP is after.

I'm getting the same tone from the Axe Fx as I was getting from my 'real' AC30 mic'd up in an isolation cabinet. I believe the tones are in there.

 

[vAmp]

When they plug me in at a guitar store, I usually think "Wow, this feels '5 times' better than what I have..." (but not unhappy with my situation)
But indeed, I'm pretty sure it is an open back 2x12 tube amp that sells them any guitar you plug in
I didn't have the same feel when I still had my Boogie 20/20 and closed cabs here.

That leaves the problem that some feel it comes out of the Kemper without using an open back cab?

With the closed cabs however, I did use to have extremely 'tasty and musical punch' from the DigiTech GSP-2101 compressor, that I've never come near yet on the Axe. But it's been ages since I tried and I will never be a compressor ace either... I now consider it nitpicking compared to what we have in return.

It was however something you could hear as well. Compared to...

We need some clips for comparison and to hear what the OP is after.

It's a feel thing.

 

[FractalAudio]

For anyone who has access to a Kemper, check out the profile "TAF - 69 Amps Clean" (it comes free with the KPA) for an example of the punchy, dynamic mojo I am talking about. Can anyone point out a preset or suggest how to get that kind of mojo out of the Axe? I'm guessing I am doing something wrong, but I'm not sure what at this point.

I'm assuming you mean "65 Amps Clean". I just did a Live Tone Match of that profile using the Vibrato Verb and the Axe-Fx sounds bouncier, livelier and simply better. I'm surprised you find that profile to be "dynamic" in any sense of the word since it's got substantial compression dialed into the amp section as well as added supply sag and "clarity" (which alters the true sound). I suppose by "dynamic" you mean compression. If so, turn up the compression on the Dyn tab.

 

[vAmp]

Although it was probably using different firmwares, I got the impression that using the CLR as a cab in front of my feet felt way punchier than on a pole 3 meters away.
So that could be a good tip too and maybe to do with distance and coupling to the floor.

 

[chris]

The plain fact is that we really don't know what the OP means regarding what he wants. He could be saying punch or dynamics or whatever, but honestly could mean something different.

In a recent consultation, I helped someone make a few presets and he said literally "I need more dynamic range." We went through a ton of gain things, MV experimentation etc. nothing was doing it for a while.

I finally tried turning up the Output Comp in the amp block and he said THERE IT IS!!! "I have way more dynamic range now since it's louder."

So by dynamic range, he actually meant compression and volume.

Using words to describe "hears" and "feels" is a losing battle. Especially if you can't record what "feels" good, it is almost impossible to figure out what exactly will help you get the feel you want.

If it is such a basic "every amp out there and the Kemper does this no problem," I have to guess it is related to EQ. Try cutting low end in the Axe preset using the GEQ in the Amp block. I bet that gets you closer. Too much bass can fool our ear and "feels" that it's not punchy and not dynamic simply because the bass freq is "filling up" our ear first.

Now will everyone stop saying "it's a feel thing" and just freaking post 2 audio clips, one without the feels and one with it? If you don't, we can't help. (Besides, wasn't a clip posted that is punchy with feels, but he wasn't there to feel the punch during the recording?)

 

[lqdsnddist]

I suppose what's sticking in my craw is the claim by the OP that the Kemper is able to reproduce that sound without having to resort to using that.

Avoid the KPA forum then my friend, because you'll read tons of post saying its "better" than the Axe in every way imaginable lol

We have an OP, who says the KPA is punchy and dynamic. One man's opinion

We have Cliff, saying he compared it and didn't find the patch to dynamic in any sense of the word. Another man's opinion


Realistically though, because the physical properties of sound aren't subjective (barring some work done in psycho-acoustics which is as subjective lol) one device isn't going to magically sound like an amp in the room, unless its actually an open back cab in the room.

Kemper simply isn't magic. Its a nice unit, I had one for a while, but it simply can't fill the room with sound like an open back cab in the room will, unless your playing it through an open back cab.

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

OP almost definitely wants more compression. Whenever someone wants "more dynamic range", it's usually musical compression they're after. I recommend Supply Sag. Something else I recommend is the Output Comp in the Amp block. Try increasing Dynamics in the Amp block if you want a bigger range between your soft stuff and your hard stuff, but definitely Comp it on the way out. Select an IR close to the cab you're after, and dig in.

If that's not it, then you might have to try running through an actual cab. If the Kemper gets the magic for you in the same situation, you might just have to roll Kemper. But I'd cross-examine until you nail down what the point is that's not in common. I'd still wager it's the FEELING of compression you're after.

 

[iaresee]

In a recent consultation, I helped someone make a few presets and he said literally "I need more dynamic range." We went through a ton of gain things, MV experimentation etc. nothing was doing it for a while.

I finally tried turning up the Output Comp in the amp block and he said THERE IT IS!!! "I have way more dynamic range now since it's louder."

So by dynamic range, he actually meant compression and volume.

OP almost definitely wants more compression. Whenever someone wants "more dynamic range", it's compression they're after.

This is irony, right? I'm always a little shaky on irony, but this sure feels like it to me.

 

[vAmp]

I'm always a little shaky on irony, but this sure feels like it to me.

Dead serious, is my guess.

A lot in this world is the complete reverse of what we think as well...

BTW, radley once explained something about compression that sounded completely contra-intuitive and apparently is true... (haven't found it back yet).

 

[FractalAudio]

IME when people say the want more "dynamic range" they really want more compression (and hence less dynamic range). A real tube amp played in a room is typically quite loud and causes compression of the human auditory system. When listening to a modeler with monitors the volume is typically far less and less auditory compression occurs. Hence the impression that the sound has "less dynamics".

The Axe-Fx recreates the dynamic response of the modeled amps with unparalleled accuracy. I've tested every modeler/profiler made and compared them to the real amps and the Axe-Fx is by far the most accurate. I don't artificially exaggerate the compression for the purposes of selling gear. I leave it to the user to add compression, if desired.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Yep, dial in a nice Dyna-Comp style compression, stick it on the front end, and jam..

Its a classic pedal still on so many guys boards for good reason

 

[happycritter]

When a clean *tube* amp has its input gain turned way-down, there is still a great deal of headroom and power in reserve to help make even a 'low-level' sound seem very punchy and dynamic. There is a whole lot of anecdotal blah-blah-blah that goes into the following, however, tapping into a higher headroom/wattage power amp may help get this *desired/punchy* effect.

For the curious, just do a rapid-fire comparison between SSpre+SSpwr <--> t00bamp, t00bpre+SSpwr <--> t00bamp, SSpre+t00bPWR <--> t00bamp and you might be surprised... Has to be rapid-fire comparison because our memory allocation for auditory stimulus is VERY short.

EDIT: added a few descriptors for clarity

 

[AZG]

I thought my original few posts were pretty clear, but let me try to clarify more. When I said "It's super dynamic, punchy, warm and fun to play" I meant it is very touch sensitive, a light touch is softer and quieter, medium touch is louder with more punch/kick/thump, very heavy touch is very loud with a thunderous punch/kick/thump. Tons of headroom so to speak. The complete opposite of compressed. The real tube amp does this wonderfully. The Kemper profile I am playing ("TAF - 69 Amps Clean" which is a 65 Amps Tupelo) through a CLR has similar touch sensitivity and punch/kick/thump while being a different flavor of amp. I am not able thus far to get the same tone out of the Axe II through the exact same CLR at the same volume. I assume it can be done, but it has not been as easy as selecting an amp and cab as it usually is for me. I have only had the KPA in my hands for a few day so I have only flipped through a few profiles until I found this one and I'm still figuring out/remembering the basics, but I assume I can find other profiles on the KPA with similar touch sensitivity.

I did own a KPA 2.5 years ago for a few months but after doing a side by side comparison with my Axe II I ended up selling it because I preferred the Axe. Still do for most amp tones, effects, etc. But this low gain tone is an exception.

 

[AZG]

And I already said this before, but all devices are being played at similar volumes. Bedroom or possibly slightly loud bedroom volumes.

 

[Webb]

I'm assuming you mean "65 Amps Clean". I just did a Live Tone Match of that profile using the Vibrato Verb and the Axe-Fx sounds bouncier, livelier and simply better. I'm surprised you find that profile to be "dynamic" in any sense of the word since it's got substantial compression dialed into the amp section as well as added supply sag and "clarity" (which alters the true sound). I suppose by "dynamic" you mean compression. If so, turn up the compression on the Dyn tab.

Cliff, any chance of sharing that tone match so the OP and others can compare?

 

[sheky]

Some of those TAF amp clips sound incredible. There's a chime and 3D that I don't experience with the Axe. So about 6 months ago I bought the Kemper and TAF profiles but have found they do not sound like those clips on the TAF page.