Strange behaviour in delay's MIX control?

psst

psst

Inspired
Not sure if this is a bug, but it's for sure something that is a little bit weird compared to any other FX units or pedals.

If the MIX in a Phaser or a Chorus or whatever other FX is set to 0%, you only hear the dry signal, then, as mix is increased, the wet signal is added. Normal behavior. Volume is unchanged, cause although you decrease the volume of the "dry", the wet is added and summed in the same proportion.

Right.

But, in the case of DELAY, the wet signal is not summed (cause it's delayed), so if you have, for example, your mix in the delay set to 40%, you get a very audible decrease in volume when you activate the delay block.
Of course it doesn't matter if you always use that patch with delay, but if you want to activate/deactivate it, it becomes a problem.
Same happens with reverb but the problem is more obvious in delay.

In any other FX unit or pedal I've used, delay MIX control behaves like this:
From 0 to 50%, the dry signal is untouched, and the wet signal goes from 0 to max. From 50% to 100%, the wet signal is untouched and the dry goes from max to 0.
This is (I think) more intuitive way to use it.

What I do now, is set the delay (100% wet) in parallel and use the grid global mixer to set the level I want for delay, but it would be much easier and less confusing for people newer to effects if the mix behavior was the way I suggested.


Comments appreciated. ;)
 
psst said:
But, in the case of DELAY, the wet signal is not summed (cause it's delayed), so if you have, for example, your mix in the delay set to 40%, you get a very audible decrease in volume when you activate the delay block.
Click to expand...
Depending on the nature of the processed signal, you can get the same effect with other, umm, effects. That's why there's a "Level" control in effects blocks.

From 0 to 50%, the dry signal is untouched, and the wet signal goes from 0 to max. From 50% to 100%, the wet signal is untouched and the dry goes from max to 0.
Click to expand...
With delays longer than about 20ms, that would tend to make 50% mix the loudest setting, and you'd still need the level control.

What I do now, is set the delay (100% wet) in parallel and use the grid global mixer to set the level I want for delay,
Click to expand...
All you have to do is set the level control in the delay block to match active and bypassed signal levels.

If you want to assign Mix to a modifier, then you can also assign level to the same modifier and tweak the mod settings so that level stays the same as you change the mix.
 
psst said:
From 0 to 50%, the dry signal is untouched, and the wet signal goes from 0 to max. From 50% to 100%, the wet signal is untouched and the dry goes from max to 0.
This is (I think) more intuitive way to use it.
Click to expand...
While I don't fancy redoing all the patches, I agree that would probably be a bit easier to do certain things with. At a certain point though, you're probably going to have to mess with the LEVEL control either way if you're varying the MIX, and that LEVEL adjustment will be based on content (what you're playing) as much as, or more than, anything else.
 
That's why there's level control and various bypass modes.

You'll never get 0 dB gain through the delay block because the delayed signal is neither perfectly correlated nor perfectly uncorrelated.
 
psst said:
With delays longer than about 20ms, that would tend to make 50% mix the loudest setting, and you'd still need the level control.
Click to expand...

???
No, it wouldn't...
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Yes, it would. Beyond about 20 ms, the comb filtering caused by the delays would become very fine. Under those circumstances, delayed and dry sound would tend to be additive, i.e., you'd get the highest total signal level with approximately equal amounts of wet and dry. In order for the Mix control to produce the most stable level (never perfectly constant: see Cliff's post above), the 50% Mix should attenuate both delayed and dry signals by some amount (3dB if they were perfectly decorrelated, more than 3dB for better correlation) compared to the level of the components by themselves at the mix extremes (0% and 100%).
 
I understand Jay Mitchell's post but, although reasonable, in my experience when I set the "mix" in any delay pedal (and the way I use it in Axe, as described in my first post) it doesn't affect very apparently the volume, but the way it's implemented in the Axe, it *really* does.

Well, anyway, it seems I'll have to live with it, I'll continue doing it the way I described in my first post, it's the closest to the way I'm used to use delays (using "level", which of course I knew of, means having to tweak it every time I touch delay mix, that's why I prefer the other way).
 
Delay pedals simply add the delayed signal. The "mix" control is really a wet level control.

If you prefer that style of operation simply put the delay block in parallel with a shunt block, set the mix to 100% and adjust the level to taste.
 
FractalAudio said:
Delay pedals simply add the delayed signal. The "mix" control is really a wet level control.
Click to expand...

No, most of them (boss, line 6, etc) behave like that ("wet level control") the first 50%, then from 50 to 100% they behave more like a "reverse dry control", so you can have just the delayed signal at 100% (the way I described it in the first post).

FractalAudio said:
If you prefer that style of operation simply put the delay block in parallel with a shunt block, set the mix to 100% and adjust the level to taste.
Click to expand...

Good idea, easier than the way I was doing it. Thanks.
 
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