Stereo out of Axe to mono pa

Chris@KatsuKuriMedia said:
that's not true. copy left to right means exactly that: the left output is copied to the right output, so all 6 outputs (Out 1 XLR L/R and 1/4" L/R and Out 2 L/R) have the Left signal. you don't hear the right channel at all.

using a single cable from axe to mixer from any Left output would be the same exact result.
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Ugh, of course, total brain fart! I was thinking sum L+R and typing this.
 
zionplayer said:
Truly not wanting to hijack the thread or conversation, I am really interested in the stereo/mono discussion. I know this thread question is about routing of your signal, but some of the responses trigger a question in my mind.

I always thought running signals in stereo, not considering special effects like Ping-Pong delays or chorus sweeps, was to add/replicate the depth of sitting at an intimate live performance where the signals originated at varying distances from the listener. Those seated on the right would experience a slight delay in sound and change in volume produced from the left of the stage and vice versa, and this all added to the depth of experience perceived of the live performance. If my understanding is close, it would never make sense to pan anything hard left or right where your seat in the audience would clearly get only a part of the signal, but rather everything should be mixed in the stereo field with some sense of "placement" left or right to produce a similar depth of hearing experience.

Small or large venue alike, wouldn't this always hold true if the intent is to reproduce what the live experience would be, what our mind would tell our ears we should expect based on where we are seated? OK - hijack over. Feel free to direct me to more proper posts on the topic, maybe in the lounge or otherwise.
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This is true, but in the case of the guitar and the effects being used it may not be. The guitar might benefit from being placed in the mix spatially with respect to panning but the effects depending on the type will stat to phase the closer they get in the mix. Now with that said you could with the example of a ping pong delay, set up the repeat to be louder on the side that is panned more to the center of the mix to create a sense of greater separation when the effect is engaged.
 
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If everything was truly mixed well by a good sound engineer it would only add to the listeners experience. Even drums get panned if everything was up the middle it just wouldn't sound as good. Vocal harmonies can also be panned based on the sound mans experience.
 
markmusicman said:
If everything was truly mixed well by a good sound engineer it would only add to the listeners experience. Even drums get panned if everything was up the middle it just wouldn't sound as good. Vocal harmonies can also be panned based on the sound mans experience.
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true, but as mentioned earlier, if the mix was panned, an audience member on the far left of the house wouldn't hear much of the stuff coming out of the house right... and actually be missing out on the experience.

my axe is setup for full stereo, even with some stereo effects like dual delay hard panned, chorus and reverb in stereo.

however, i just send a single line to the house mixer, usually the Right side. my dual delay for my lead has something like 500ms on the left only and 750ms on the right only - i like sending the longer one to the house.

if i use 2 monitors on the stage for me, i of course get stereo - and the house is in mono. nothing to change or reconfigure ever. if i happen to want stereo in the house, i just send that other line.

now i did take the time to make sure that sending just the right (or left) side to the house will sound good. i don't get any cancellation or "missing" effects - chorus still sounds like chorus, reverb, delays etc. but they don't get the full stereo image - which of course they wouldn't anyway if the PA is run in mono. i'd rather do that than sum L+R (either in the axe or by sending 2 lines) and having things phase cancel since it's being summed.
 
Nothing has to be panned hard left or right, just slightly. I agree I always run my setup in stereo and wouldn't want it any other way.
 
Hey I am a believer in however you want it you should use it. Running mono is what allot of guys do as they only have one amp. I personally have always used two and enjoy the benefits of the options that provides. I guess it all comes down to personal preference. As for the PA as far back as I can remember and I have been playing out since the 70s we have always used power amps with mixing boards with a left and right channel. If people choose to sit right in front of one side then they will hear what ever the sound mans has mixed in that side. Ultimately he is the one in control of the front sound.
 
markmusicman said:
Hey I am a believer in however you want it you should use it. Running mono is what allot of guys do as they only have one amp. I personally have always used two and enjoy the benefits of the options that provides. I guess it all comes down to personal preference. As for the PA as far back as I can remember and I have been playing out since the 70s we have always used power amps with mixing boards with a left and right channel. If people choose to sit right in front of one side then they will hear what ever the sound mans has mixed in that side. Ultimately he is the one in control of the front sound.
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And as along time sound guy (who chose for a variety of reason to NOT make a living doing it) - and before I ever picked up a guitar, I firmly believe that STEREO for live use is a complete waste of time/effort.

Sure, MOST PA's today are built to run stereo - as in LEFT + RIGHT panning capability, separate amp channels. But... the reality is the large majority of inputs to a console are still mono -vox, drums, guitars, bass, etc. with the exception of keys and such.

While stereo cabs may make you feel better when using them on stage, the effect - other than for a few in the sweet spot - is totally lost on the audience. I seldom pan - unless it on a smaller console that I want to sub group. There's no point !!

The purpose of the PA is to amplify the stage sound. The only way to do that and have the audience ALL hear the same thing is to do that in a MONO manner. For example.. thick chorus or ping-pong delay is pretty much useless live.. it doesn't translate. Think of an inverted triangle where the L/R stacks are the base and FOH is the peak.
Anyone *inside that triangle* will get "perfect stereo" as they are in the "zone", the sweet spot.
Outside that triangle, the effect is lost on the audience.. who can get VERY unhappy when they paid to hear good a good sound. I always walk the venue during a gig, to ensure a consistent sound wherever the patrons are sitting.

I will always try to run MONO-like on a stereo console as it's my job to make you sound good to the crowd who paid to come see/hear you. Stereo does not enhance that effort... just the opposite IMHO.
My $0.02... and YMMV
 
I think we all agree it's a very interesting subject.
Again the purpose of the discussion was to open ALL doors so that players could sift the information and work out what was right for them.
I spoke to my friend Macca again yesterday about stereo mixing etc (and granted he is not the only mixer in the world) but I use his experience to understand which way I want to go.
He reiterated that every keyboard player hands him a stereo line and Macca takes it, puts it into 2 channels on the desk and mixes it in the middle - no pan - mono. He's sure that the keyboard player thinks he is going 'out front' in stereo but really it's dual mono. He tells them, but they shrug it either believing that they don't want to know that it's mono out the front, or they just don't comprehend it and move on.

I think the point we're missing here is this:
We're all putting our thoughts forward, which is awesome. But just because the PA is in stereo (which really all PAs are) doesn't mean that the mix is in stereo. Again in 28 years of live playing, I've never been part of or heard a panned, true stereo mix because it doesn't translate in the 'real' world of live gigs. This doesn't mean that you can't run your Axe in stereo, it just means decide for yourself what's right. My research and years of experience have shown me that I don't want to spend time creating stereo mixes with pans and stereo cabs etc if that's not what the crowd hears, or it's not the way I'm running it on stage as I prefer mono. Doesn't meant YOU can't run stereo. You may want to run your rig in stereo on stage and hear the beautiful lush sound of stereo chorus etc even if out the front it's mono or dual mono - everyone is different.
I prefer to run mono because I know (nearly) all mixes are in mono. I could run stereo on stage and the mix is still mono out the front, but I want to hear what I know is going out the front.
I appreciate markmusicmans opinion and the way he runs his rig as I do Chris' way, and I hope they appreciate my personal opinion on how I choose to run my rig also - we're all different.
In some ways (and this is only me) it is similar to this analogy: I can only drive a maximum speed in Australia of 120 kph, so why should I spend money on a porche worth $100,000 if I can only drive it 120, not 320? Well that's not what I'm saying about the Axe - what I'm saying is: spend the money on a beautiful piece of equipment even if it means you may not use it to it's full potential (stereo) LIVE (because hardly anyone mixes in stereo), because you can use it in the studio or elsewhere to it's full potential.
If your band has it's own PA and sound man and travels with you to every gig, then you can demand stereo. But trust me, if you're playing at venues that have in house PAs, with their own sound guy, 99.9% of the time the mix will be mono.
My trio plays a regular gig at a club every Friday. Massive in house PA - in stereo - and I bring my own desk in and patch it through because then we don't need to reset the desk every week due to other bands using the in house desk. I mix from side of stage. I get a starting mix, go for a walk (thanks to Line 6 wireless) for first 2 songs to get levels right, then go for a walk a few more times later in the night. I could mix it stereo but for the reasons mentioned above, I choose mono.That doesn't mean you can't.
This whole forum is that, there is no right or wrong - only what works best for you. But if together we put all the info out there for other guys, it can help with their decisions on how they want to play live.
 
I agree its all personal preference and the sound engineer ultimately has control. There is no right or wrong its what ever a person chooses. The size of the venue makes a big difference on a sound engineers decision. Were all unique in how we want things thats the beauty of the Axe Fx we have so many choices, the thing about a sound man is he needs to be as good at his job as the musicians or he can make a good band sound bad.
 
Chris@KatsuKuriMedia said:
true, but as mentioned earlier, if the mix was panned, an audience member on the far left of the house wouldn't hear much of the stuff coming out of the house right... and actually be missing out on the experience.

my axe is setup for full stereo, even with some stereo effects like dual delay hard panned, chorus and reverb in stereo.

however, i just send a single line to the house mixer, usually the Right side. my dual delay for my lead has something like 500ms on the left only and 750ms on the right only - i like sending the longer one to the house.

if i use 2 monitors on the stage for me, i of course get stereo - and the house is in mono. nothing to change or reconfigure ever. if i happen to want stereo in the house, i just send that other line.

now i did take the time to make sure that sending just the right (or left) side to the house will sound good. i don't get any cancellation or "missing" effects - chorus still sounds like chorus, reverb, delays etc. but they don't get the full stereo image - which of course they wouldn't anyway if the PA is run in mono. i'd rather do that than sum L+R (either in the axe or by sending 2 lines) and having things phase cancel since it's being summed.
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Hi Chris. Can you please help clarify something for me? I'm sorry this thread is going on and on!
I want to ask you something about your setup but first I want to clarify something because I think the word "stereo" is getting confused as to it's meaning - and please someone correct me if I'm wrong too!
I think people call PAs stereo because theres a left and right coming out of the desk into poweramps and speakers, but to me its not stereo until something is panned - isn't that correct? Just because two lines are given to a sound guy (which to us is stereo) to go to the desk, and the desk has left and right XLRs going to poweramps and speakers, our signal does not become stereo until our two guitar channels are panned - if the sound guy leaves our two guitar channels dead centre (no pan) then our guitar signal (regardless of two lines out of the Axe) are not stereo but dual mono isn't it?
This is why I originally asked the stereo/mono question because if I'm right, a lot of guys are creating stereo patches with stereo cabs and effects and sending left and right from the Axe to the desk, but it's dual mono if there's no panning - isn't that right?
I'm not trying to be smart, I just wanna know because if I'm creating stereo patches but out the front the sound is dual mono, isn't that a waste of time for live situations?
Maybe someone can answer this too. If I create a patch with stereo cabs - one Marshall (panned left) with a 57 mic and a Boogie cab (panned right) with a R121 mic on it and then give the sound guy left and right lines out from the Axe into the desk, and the sound guy takes my two channels but leaves them dead centre with no panning, what sound re the Marshall and Boogie sound will be heard out the front? Will it be a blend of both cabs cause there's no FOH panning - only one cab heard cause theres no FOH panning or....this is what is confusing me re setting up stere patches. What is heard out the front if there's no panning of my two guitar channels?
Same question to you Chris re your set up. If your patches are in stereo and you have stereo cabs panned left and right but you only give FOH your right line out, what happens to your cab in your patch panned left and what happens to your sound if the PA is mono?
Thx mate
 
[OY!, had a rather lengthy reply get lost in the bit bucket by stinkin' Mac gestures]

The short version is...

I think we're missing an opportunity with live sound if there is NO stereo field at all. Granted, hard panning is awful but mashing everything into mono doesn't have to be the only alternative. There is some middle ground, say...10-2 or 11-1 (think hands of a clock). Where things aren't lost if you're totally one side or the other but your brain is aided in it's quest to decipher what it's hearing. The size of the venue and the way the PA is situated will determine what range will work but I don't recall being in a single venue that demanded mono...but perhaps there is.

Try it yourself. Aviom's or live PA or whatever allows you to control two sound sources. Start with things panned center and slowly pan apart and see how little it takes for your brain to notice. It was an eye opener for me personally.


A HIGHLY recommended read:
This Is Your Brain On Music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
DTownSMR said:
[OY!, had a rather lengthy reply get lost in the bit bucket by stinkin' Mac gestures]

The short version is...

I think we're missing an opportunity with live sound if there is NO stereo field at all. Granted, hard panning is awful but mashing everything into mono doesn't have to be the only alternative. There is some middle ground, say...10-2 or 11-1 (think hands of a clock). Where things aren't lost if you're totally one side or the other but your brain is aided in it's quest to decipher what it's hearing. The size of the venue and the way the PA is situated will determine what range will work but I don't recall being in a single venue that demanded mono...but perhaps there is.

Try it yourself. Aviom's or live PA or whatever allows you to control two sound sources. Start with things panned center and slowly pan apart and see how little it takes for your brain to notice. It was an eye opener for me personally.


A HIGHLY recommended read:
This Is Your Brain On Music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Hi DTownSMR and Warrior
I think everyone's missing my point.
I'm not saying you can't mix in stereo or create stereo patches - I'm saying that hardly anyone mixes in stereo anymore, regardless if the PA is in stereo because no one pans, so what happens to your Axe stereo patches after you've given the sound guy left and right out but he doesn't pan those two guitar channels?
For sound guys that DO mix in stereo (small minority) the question doesn't apply. I've read the Larry Mitchell interview. All I'm saying is that we can make the most remarkable stereo patches we can dream of in the Axe, but if it doesn't get mixed in stereo at FOH, what happens to your sound out front?
The other thing we forget as guitarists is that there are other members in the band that get equal mixing - it's not all about us. If we were sit down solo players, then we would get all the attention. But we're in a band where the sound guy has to 'mix' the band, not just make the guitar player's sound the most vital or stand out. So my question doesn't apply to bands that carry their own sound guy who may mix in stereo or situations where you know the sound guy and he mixes in stereo - the question is for the majority of gigs where the PA is supplied and the sound guy mixes in mono or doesn't pan, what happens to our Axe fx stereo patches - do our stereo mixed cabs become one sound at the front or......it's probably more of a technical question that needs answering by someone who 'technically' knows what happens to stereo sounds when they are combined as mono.
 
claudesmusicbox said:
This is why I originally asked the stereo/mono question because if I'm right, a lot of guys are creating stereo patches with stereo cabs and effects and sending left and right from the Axe to the desk, but it's dual mono if there's no panning - isn't that right?
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correct. well... kinda.

stereo usually means there is a specific interaction between left and right speakers, usually when pan effects are used - it becomes less left and more right, then less right and more left - that's a stereo effect.

dual mono means that there are simply 2 different signals being played out of 2 different speakers and they don't necessarily interact. so a delay on the left of 200ms and a delay on the right of 300ms isn't necessarily a "stereo delay." it's a dual delay.

yes, the word "stereo" gets thrown around a lot sometimes meaning dual mono or basically 2 signals.

but once we get our stereo or dual mono signals to the mixer, if the PA system is configured in mono (nothing panned), then what you're hearing is mono, not "dual mono" since there's nothing dual about it. the same signal is present in any speaker.

in that case, you may as well just make your axe-fx output modes into Sum L+R so you know exactly what the summation of your L & R signals will sound like in that PA that's mono.


If your patches are in stereo and you have stereo cabs panned left and right but you only give FOH your right line out, what happens to your cab in your patch panned left and what happens to your sound if the PA is mono?
Thx mate
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if i only give the Right side signal, the PA will only hear/produce the right side cab. no one will hear the left panned cab, whether the PA is in stereo or mono. i'm only sending the right signal to the mixer, so the only thing that can ever come out is that right side signal.

that's why i don't do panning things that affect my overall tone, like panned cabs or amps. but let's say i DID do a panned stereo cab and on the left is a Fender cab and the right is a Marshall cab. maybe i want to give the brighter fender cab to the house one night so i give the left... or maybe i want the marshall cab to go to the house - i'll give the left. everything else is pretty much the same no matter what signal i give.

now on stage i may have a stereo setup (2 monitors) and i get the benefit of stereo, but i know the PA and audience is getting a good sound too because i know how i set it up.
 
Chris@KatsuKuriMedia said:
correct. well... kinda.

stereo usually means there is a specific interaction between left and right speakers, usually when pan effects are used - it becomes less left and more right, then less right and more left - that's a stereo effect.

dual mono means that there are simply 2 different signals being played out of 2 different speakers and they don't necessarily interact. so a delay on the left of 200ms and a delay on the right of 300ms isn't necessarily a "stereo delay." it's a dual delay.

yes, the word "stereo" gets thrown around a lot sometimes meaning dual mono or basically 2 signals.

but once we get our stereo or dual mono signals to the mixer, if the PA system is configured in mono (nothing panned), then what you're hearing is mono, not "dual mono" since there's nothing dual about it. the same signal is present in any speaker.

in that case, you may as well just make your axe-fx output modes into Sum L+R so you know exactly what the summation of your L & R signals will sound like in that PA that's mono.




if i only give the Right side signal, the PA will only hear/produce the right side cab. no one will hear the left panned cab, whether the PA is in stereo or mono. i'm only sending the right signal to the mixer, so the only thing that can ever come out is that right side signal.

that's why i don't do panning things that affect my overall tone, like panned cabs or amps. but let's say i DID do a panned stereo cab and on the left is a Fender cab and the right is a Marshall cab. maybe i want to give the brighter fender cab to the house one night so i give the left... or maybe i want the marshall cab to go to the house - i'll give the left. everything else is pretty much the same no matter what signal i give.

now on stage i may have a stereo setup (2 monitors) and i get the benefit of stereo, but i know the PA and audience is getting a good sound too because i know how i set it up.
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Awesome - that's the reply I've been looking for!
Thanks Chris. I knew the answer (to suit me) and now I can move on and begin creating my patches.
This forum is phenomenal with all the advice. As I previously mentioned, there really isn't a right or wrong - really only what suits the individual player.
 
claudesmusicbox said:
I think everyone's missing my point.
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Not we're missing your point, I thought it was covered pretty clearly multiple times. Using stereo presets needs to be done with great care because if summed, either at the Axe-Fx or at the mixing desk, can cause phase cancelation issues. I prefer to go a more simple (re: safer) route and just don't use stereo at all (albeit sadly) to avoid those issues completely. YMocMV
 
I prefer "dual mono" to "stereo" too.

I think of "stereo" as a L/R system where panning is used to "place" sounds in the left to right panorama. This create a "phantom image" where the sound appears to originate from somewhere between the L/R speakers.

In that context and in my experience, there are very few venues setup to create that. Some Broadway theaters, Cirque theaters, IMAX and maybe some other specialty venues can do it but not your average performance space.

But the dual mono thing is everywhere from dives to pro gigs.

I think it sounds rad to run in hard panned L/R with the efx panned hard but the str8 amp in the center. A faux W/D/W if you will.

In my experience, a lot of efx returns are panned hard L/R in the FOH anyway.

Richard
 
Isn't it a different ball game tho for 2 guitars. Talking to sound guys here in NZ they pan the 2 guitars like 75/25. 25/75 that being said for leads they're then centred. I'm looking at automating panning of our 2 guitars with our sequencer so that when separate guitar parts are played we are centred, and when we're playing the same riff it's the ratio above for clarity.

Will require 2 channel strips each and both hard panned L and R, the axes will make the ratios for me
 
It's not a matter of stereo vs. mono and if your crowd on the left can hear it or not if you do it right.

Don't hardpan crucial information. That's the rule. Everything else is legit.


I like dual-amp-dual-cab setups to create a stereo image. If the crowd is on one side, of course they will only hear one of the amp sounds (or at least more dominant), but that doesn't really matter. It's still hearing a great amp sound. Of course I would never hardpan a clean amp to the left and a distorted amp to the right this way. That would be just silly.
I even use ping-pong delays in this setup - because it doesn't really matter if the crowd on the left or right can't hear the ping. They still hear the raw amp sound that matters.
 
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