Sounds like The Shadows

My first post on this forum so "Hi" everyone.

I have attached my preset for working out any Shadows echoes providing you know the head timings, level setting and then adjust the amount of feedback.

This preset will accommodate up to an eight head tape echo machines which includes everything that Hank Marvin used. From the early meazzi's until the modern tvs machine, the trick for using a tape echo is which head is used for feedback (regeneration) so my preset has the following features:-

If the original song only used 4 or less tape heads, bypass the Multi Tape 2 effect in the preset. This has the effect of muting the send/receive. Then in Multi Tape 1, select the head for feedback and set its feedback to 100% and its level to <50%. Higher setting lengthen the amount of echo.

If the original song used more than 4 tape heads, ensure that all heads in Multi Tape 1 have 0% feedback and enable Multi Tape 2, setting the pan on the selected head to -100% (left channel), sending the feedback of the head back through the effects send/receive. You adjust the amount of echo by modifying the level in the receive block. Currently set at -8dB. Higher values length the echo effect.

The wet and dry mix is handled by the Mixer block.

The current setup I think is close to the original Wonderful Land recording but can be used for many tunes recorded from mid 1962 to 1965.

Web search for any of "meazzi" "shadows echoes" "meazzi timings" to obtain details of the machines used and some of the information about how the equipment was used.

I currently own an Alesis Q20 with Charlie Hall's EFTP patches but I'm thinking ebay will get a posting shortly.

Please enjoy!
 

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Just a further update on the preset posted above.
  1. Made the Return block only feed the echo blocks. Ii was previous feeding the dry signal as well.
  2. Replace the first PEQ with a tube preamp. This "warms" the input similar to the original Meazzii decks with a little drive. You can also modify the tone through the echoes.
  3. Increased the wet mix in this patch to more fully hear the echoes when playing muted.
To those who have downloaded, please try this one.
Now I have the basis for all the Shadows patches, I'll be working through the EFTP list to produce a set of presets for midi selection. I use my iPad and an app called "OnSong" to create both practice and live sets. As I play through a set and before it plays a backing track, the app sends a Midi PC to the Axe-Fx to select the correct preset for the tune. I have only had the Axe-Fx for less than a week and it has exceeded my expectations, doing far more than any other piece of equipment I have ever owned.

Comments are, of course, welcome.
 

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hey stratnvox hows it goin, you getting anywhere with re-creating those eftp presets on the axe-fx? i'm still new to the axe but starting to feel my way around a bit now. i got an alesis quadraverb gt with charlie halls eftp patches installed which i love, he's done such a fantastic job. got the alesis currently hooked up to the axe's fx loop so i can still make use of charlies patches. i'm gonna be trying to re-create the echoes on my axe fx and hopefully, all being well, the alesis unit will wind up on ebay. when i have something thats any good i'll post the patches. if i can get close to charlies stuff it will be well worth the effort.
 
Hi axefxsid,

I have completed all presets found on my Q20 from User 0-00 to User 0-76 but have yet to fine tune them. The timings of the echoes and most of the EQ's within the presets are accurately recreated from the Q20, however the wet/dry mix and the other recording and studio tone trimmings will take some time as I twick the many options.

In most of the Q20 patches, the various EQ's and filters used applied to the feedback signal, only the output or both so it took some time to work out ways of making the separation and using the blocks efficiently. So far I have about 75-80 Axe-fx presets that correspond with the Q20 using AC15 and AC30TB amp models. I personally used only about 25 or so for practice and less for performance.

Yes, I hooked up my Q20 via the FX loop and that's certainly an alternative. I'm currently trying to apply the right degree of compression post amp/cab for Atlantis. I believe they used the Fairchild compressor at Abbey road to achieve that tone and sustain for the main lead. So cool. I can rule out Axefx amp compression as it's too harsh. They may also have used some PEQ to emphasize the highs and reduce the lows. These features go beyond the capabilities of the Q20.

I have attached my Wonderful Land preset and would be interested in your comments about it.
 

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  • Wonderful Land.syx
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hey stratnvox thanks for posting the patch. i had a go playin wonderful land with it. and i think what you have done is really good, definitely getting there. the tonal changes though as the repeats decay? its hard to describe for me but to my ears the repeats become very metallic and sort of a popping sound, similar to that sound you get when the number of repeats last so long that you lose the original sound that was being echoed, and it becomes more of just an electronic pulse. i hope that makes sense? couldn't think of any better way to describe it. not suggesting that i can do any better a job on the axe fx than you, just saying what my ears hear.

moving on, i got some free time coming up, gonna give it a real good go at creating a patch or two myself. since 'the savage' is one of my fav tracks, thought i might start with trying to make a preset for that. as you know, the savage has a really defined end where there is as good a chance as any as being able to analyse the echo. one thing i noticed already, i can go into edit mode on my alesis unit and copy the millisecond readings for each repeat from my charlie hall presets, should save me a boat load of time.
 
Hi axefxsid,

Please look for my PM to you.

For everyone else, I have modified my Wonderful Land preset in the light of axefxsid's comments so I'll provide the update.

There are 2 amps that came with FW 10.7 that I have used, the ac20 Dlx and Ruby Rocket. Both create great sounds for Shadows with low drive and modifying the low cut frequency to about 300-500 Hz.

I have also provided a "Kon Tiki" preset. If you're a Shadows devotee, please comeback with your comments.
 

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  • Wonderful Land.syx
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  • Kon Tiki.syx
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Hi StratnVox, some amazing dedication there. I do however think there are some major elements missing from your tone.

Please check Raul's preset just here on axe exchange. Axe-Change - Download Preset - Wonderful Land - by raulin

If you compare that tone to some of the early shadows recordings (especially stuff like apache and wonderful land) I think you'll be quite amazed if you haven't checked this one out already.

He worked with his friend Pancho Diaz (one of the most knowledgeable shadows gurus in Spain) to achieve it. This particular patch amazes me every time I pick it up, as it has what every shadows imitation I've played with has lacked- great tape wow & flutter. It always used to puzzle me until he posted about it, and that's the biggest key to hanks sound as there is always that vibrato sound even when he isn't using the trem.

The other things I noticed were AC15/30 cranked to the hilt, and possibly the 2nd most important thing of all, massive EQing in the form of high pass and low pass leaving just the mids in tact. (almost like a telephone filter type EQ you could say)

I think with your work and his work combined you could really nail some amazing presets. Really happy there are still people out there chasing the hank tone, for me it's one of the greatest guitar tones of all time! Kev
 
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shadows echos

great stuff, glad to see action on this thread.

just done my first attempt a shadows echo patch (first attempt at doing anything one the axe fx to be honest), using fw11 beta, should work ok with the following tracks:-

1861
Dance On
Foot Tapper
Genie With The Light Brown Lamp
Geronimo
Gonzales
In The Mood
It’s A Man’s World
It’s Been A Blue Day
Les Girls
Round And Round
Shazam
Shindig
Shotgun
South Of The Border
Tales Of A Raggy Tramline
The Boys
The Girls
The Rumble

don't know if it sounds any good loud, too late to crank it up here, I only used headphones, still a lot for me to learn but I don't think it sounds to bad for my first go.

View attachment axefxsid - The Shadows.syx
 
axefxsid said:
great stuff, glad to see action on this thread.

just done my first attempt a shadows echo patch (first attempt at doing anything one the axe fx to be honest), using fw11 beta, should work ok with the following tracks:-

1861
Dance On
Foot Tapper
Genie With The Light Brown Lamp
Geronimo
Gonzales
In The Mood
It’s A Man’s World
It’s Been A Blue Day
Les Girls
Round And Round
Shazam
Shindig
Shotgun
South Of The Border
Tales Of A Raggy Tramline
The Boys
The Girls
The Rumble

don't know if it sounds any good loud, too late to crank it up here, I only used headphones, still a lot for me to learn but I don't think it sounds to bad for my first go.
Click to expand...

sorry, I suppose the amp and cab should be the other way around, maybe next time ;)
 
Hi Kev,

Thanks for your "Like" and for your post about my presets.

Yes I had looked at Raul's work. It differs from the published information about the Meazzi Echomatic II echo machine about the output levels of the heads and therefore does not have the "Galloping" echo pattern found on the original. He also used the AC15 which we are almost certain, was not used in 1962 as the AC30 was being used and also may have included the Top Boost circuit which was initially an "after market" add-on. Some say the "Apache" was recorded using an AC30 with EF86 Valves but I think it was an AC15. The integrated version called the "Vox AC30 Top Boost" began manufacture in 1964.

For those who don't know the VOX history, Dick Denney, the chief designer from Jennings Musical Industries Manufacturers of Vox equipment was requested by Hank Marvin to increase the treble on the first Vox AC30. Initially the AC30 used the EF86 valve (Tube) however it was microphonic at high gain and so it was replace with AX7 which had lower gain (triode against a pentode) and higher frequencies rolled off. Therefore "Top Boost" on Vox is directly attributable to The Shadows. Source: The Vox Story by David Petersen and Dick Denney 1993
Click to expand...
My other sources of information are Charlie Hall of EFTP and setting for the Zoom RFX200 and the Alesis Q20 and Paul Rossiter from tvsspecialtyproducts.com. Here is his run down of the history including the periods of use of various equipment. www.tvsspecialtyproducts.com/page8.htm

Your post prompted me to think further about my implementation and so I have the attached preset which I hope is close to your liking. While there are many parameters to play around with within the preset, try changing the "Gain" value on page 5 of Parameq 2. A more negative value will reduce the top tremble as its a "High Shelf" but set at 920Hz as per Charlie Hall's analysis. After looking at the frequency spectrum of the original track, there is certainly attenuation of frequencies around 1000Hx so it could be a very tight "notch" or just a minor roll off.

The problem we face is that while we know about the equipment used, we know very little more about the studio mastering changes that were made during and after recording. At the end of the day, we strive for a great sound we are happy to play live for our enjoyment and for others.

Apache is also attached to get a review. It's sound is quite different to Wonderful Land.
 

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  • Wonderful Land Ex.syx
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  • Apache.syx
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Hi axefxsid,

Great to see you make a post. I will check out your creation shortly.

Interested in your comment on my latest "Wonderful Land". Please try it, it could work for Kon Tiki/The Savage, which according to Charlie Hall, use the same or similar settings.
 
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hey stratnvox hope you are well,

yeah I downloaded you're patches, gonna give them a go later today. no doubt my patch needs fine tuning. for the delay timings I followed the settings from the first patch in my alesis box which was based on the echomatic 2.
 
wonder if we'll ever be lucky enough for the fractal audio gods to work some of the old echo boxes into the axe fx? maybe a few of use here could source one of these Echomatic 2 purchase it between us and send it to fractal so they can work their magic and get it into the axe? :)
 
axefxsid said:
wonder if we'll ever be lucky enough for the fractal audio gods to work some of the old echo boxes into the axe fx? maybe a few of use here could source one of these Echomatic 2 purchase it between us and send it to fractal so they can work their magic and get it into the axe? :)
Click to expand...
Hi axefxsid,

You may not have seen my request see http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-wish-list/73172-multi-tap-delay-handle-up-6-taps.html
Please add your weight to this. Your support may assist Cliff in deciding where he places his next efforts!

Much of the echomatic II can be covered by the existing MTD and various eq's/filters to emulate the Meazzi, because that machine only has 4 read heads. There are a number of 6 head echo machines that can't be emulated without extraordinary effort and manipulation and that's the reason for the request.
 
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stumled on to this thread Again. WOW - what progerss.Will try the patches later this week. - AAEN
 
axefxsid said:
had to calm the gain down on one of the amps but brilliant!!! thanks a lot stratnvox, at this rate my quadraverb will be on ebay in no time :)
Click to expand...

Sorry about the gain. My presets have yet to be "normalised".

So glad you liked them but have you tried the ones I posted Yesterday (11/8/2013)?

I'm waiting for some confirmation that these are the best yet before I apply the same preset layout to many other Shadows presets and before I post them in Axe-Change.

Thanks for your "Like" on the request.
 
AAEN said:
stumled on to this thread Again. WOW - what progerss.Will try the patches later this week. - AAEN
Click to expand...

So glad you picked up this thread again, since you created it.

Yes, I hope we have made progress. FW11beta has been a great help to the Amp sounds.

Looking forward to your thoughts on the presets.
 
Hey StratnVox,

This is some great work you have done. Always have wanted to sit down and try and get the Hank Marvin sound. Used to play a lot of Shadows tunes in a band back in my early teens. The band was named Atlantis so what does that tell you.
Wonderful land patch sounded great. Will be trying the Apache patch that you have posted for sure.

Again great job with these.

Mark
 
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